Burnley Grammar School

Johan, You seem to be suggesting that the allegations made against your teachers was untrue, because you and a few of your friends decided it wasn't true. You can't prove the allegations were not true.

You seem, if you will allow me to say so, to be one of those people who are perpetually offended if your beliefs are challenged.

I was making the point, in perhaps too, jocular a way (I apologise unreservedly if it offended you), that a teacher with certain tastes or tendencies, is very unlikely to "try it on" with every pupil he meets as he would soon be rumbled. For example, I very much doubt Jimmy Savile molested every girl pr woman he met - he and others would target more subtly than that. I read after Savile's death of many women who said, in effect, that because he acted the perfect gentleman with them, it couldn't have been true what many others alleged against him.

I suppose what I am saying is that just because it didn't happen to you, or your group of friends, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I don't understand why so many of you have such a strong reaction to my posts. There are posts I read (for example grown men looking at old TV shows which should by now have been wiped, commenting on the physiques of young pre-pubescent boys naked in the shower), which leave me feeling very uncomfortable indeed, but I don't go around telling people what they should, or should not post, as you do. We all form our own opinions, and most of us keep that opinion to ourselves.


Believe me, there WERE dodgy teachers, especially in PE departments. You were lucky you never rang across one

Alan on 1st August 2022 at 05:30

You seem to be attempting to find abuse where there was none yet again, for God's sake give it a rest man.

What I said was that claims were made at the child abuse enquiry about a master at my school which I found unlikely to be true, I didn't name the school and it was not where Nicky Campbell went.

What I would say on the subject of that enquiry, when I and others who were my peers found out about the allegations made by two of our one time peers, fifteen of us met and discussed what was being said.

On the back of that and our agreement that this was highly unlikely to be true we agreed the content of a letter which was sent to Alexis Jay, the chair of the enquiry and it was written by one of our number who is in his professional life a Director of Social Services so he knows on that score what he's about.

We received an utterly dismissive and disinterested reply so the thoughts of fifteen of us counted for nothing against the word of two men about a man now long dead. I was utterly disgusted and would still maintain, there was no abuse.

As for Alan's insult about not being the right 'type'. Please don't sink to that sort of speculation, it's quite disgusting.

You really should think very carefully before you post here further.

I much prefer it when people talk about their own schooldays rather than second guessing the motives of some media personality.

Paul J on 24th June 2022 at 14:59
I've just watched the Good Health video which I remember from years ago, I'm amazed it's still around.

https://youtu.be/NRRw-k7cGJs

One of the things that struck me immediately was that among the lads they were all of healthy size and more importantly weight for their age, there didn't seem to be an inch of fat to be seen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have just seen this. It very much reminds me of secondary school showers that I had although they seemed a bit bigger, the showers that is, not the boys. You're right all the boys do look very lean and that's my personal recall as well from being in the showers with a group from class like this too in the 1980s. Not much fat about, even slightly so. If anything we all seemed on the underweight size of things and slightly skinny. But we all ate bags of crisps, plenty of sweets and all the processed rubbish like burgers and drank fizzy sugary drinks galore quite often, but we stayed like the guys in the showers on TV. Nobody ever seemed to put on weight. Were we really that much more active that we simply burned all those excess calories away as soon as we consumed them?

I have to salute the fortitude of those schoolboys back then putting up with having themselves filmed for television literally going through the entire school showering process from start to finish with each other and no filter on what got shown either. How the hell did they get permission to go that far with it. Perhaps because it said it was a junior middle school it gave them more leeway to do that compared to a slightly older secondary school. I wonder if they would have been able to do the same at a secondary with post puberty students or was that a taboo back then. To me the taboo would seem to be with the younger age group, not older. I certainly found it surprising to see a middle school doing the showers thing even then from the era I went to school. I'd have been shocked to the core if my middle had got me doing all that.

Someone here said it was a bit of an event seeing your mates with nothing on at school. At first definitely. I can still remember the awesome sight I got when I saw my best friend for the first time stripped off next to me in our school shower. He wasn't very tall and had very little actual meat on the bones so to speak but seemed to have an appendage out of all proportion to the rest of him. I was just so pleased to be bang on the average for 80s boys in all measurements back then but even so you'd get apprehensive about how you look.

I wouldn't change this aspect of my schooldays. I think communal school showering was always a natural thing for a group of boys to do with each other in school.

Andy on 30th July 2022 at 20:40


I made a point of saying that he could return to this country and fight a dreadful slander, if Mr Campbell's remarks are untrue. I am now pre-judging the case.

As regards Johan not finding the claims credible, even though he was at the school mentioned, and presumably knew the teachers concerned - well, I mean no offence to Johan, but perhaps he just wasn't their type.

You will usually find somebody behaving in a questionable way does not behave in the same way to every boy or girl, because that would confirm rumour or suspicion - they are selective.

I still find it hard to believe that both Mr Renton and Mr. Campbell would invent such wicked lies, as they have so much to lose it it were proven that they were lying - they would certainly lose both their reputations and careers, and lose a very large sum of money if they were proven to be lying. Why trash your career by inventing things as grave as that?

Rich C.

I was having a late night read, no intention of writing a thing but I've just read your post through three times in succession. You seem to have found the strength of forgiveness.

Were your parents right in believing these 'Brothers' would give you a 'good and sound education' and can I ask if you believe they did yourself?

There are so many questions I'd like to ask you but I don't want to come across as some kind of psychoanalyst. To throw up before school many days was the stand out line for me. I've no words for adults who would turn a childhood into that kind of ongoing year by year fear.

Thankyou Rich for that powerful and compelling piece you have written.

It reminded me of the film Song For A Raggy Boy. When I saw this film some time ago, made in 2003, it left me incredibly angry and unable to stop thinking about it afterwards. In it there is a scene where two young boys who are brothers are beaten and whipped very badly on Christmas morning of all days in a yard in front of everyone and their wailing actually felt so real I could barely believe they were acting it at that age. It was stunning and very very upsetting to watch.

Then later another boy is eventually killed after being beaten so viciously and uncontrollably by one of the vicious Brothers, who seems to get away with it. I would urge anyone interested to see this film if you haven't done so already. The boys in this film are completely dehumanised even being known as just a number. What was this incredible wickedness all about and to what end? I so wish this film had been no more than a work of fiction but it is infact based on reality. But at least there was one good egg who tried to save the boys from that hell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_for_a_Raggy_Boy

The full film in good quality can be found here;

https://ok.ru/video/1194570746593

In the 1960s I went to a school run by the Irish Christian Brothers in the UK. I won't go into the history of the order, it's well documented as is the conduct of the Brothers during that time. They ran a number of prep schools and rather more Catholic secondary schools across the UK and many more in Ireland with their reach extending across the English speaking world in particular to Australia.

I was sent to a prep school by my parents at the age of seven and I passed the 11+ and moved to one of their grammar schools where I spent the next seven years until I completed and passed my A levels. The staff of the school were about 50% Brothers and of the remainder 49% were men and women making up the remainder. I was only taught be one woman for a single year in the prep school.

Boys schools back then were perhaps fairly brutal places and that was my experience. The school was strict with no let up and all of the Brothers and most of the men always carried a hefty leather strap with them and it was used very liberally. A summons to the front of the room to hold out your hands for one, two or three delivered on each hand happened in almost every lesson to at least one lad and sometimes almost every one right the way from seven to eighteen. The pain varied depending on who was delivering it and over time, tolerance of it rose too so your hands would burn and sting for a while but it was no big deal.

In class and around the school, the brothers often added an air or more obvious brutality. Hair pulling was pretty normal, I remember several times having my hair pulled and head banged off a wall or blackboard until I saw stars and I would say most lads would have similar memories. There was no consistency though, one day what a Brother laughed at might the next day earn you a hiding. Of the PE staff often known for brutality, ours were no exception but the two Brothers who took PE (two other men took PE too) they always had their strap up their sleeve and they would come behind you without warning and just leather the backs of your legs with no warning at all perhaps for not trying hard enough. The other men also strapped the backs of legs but not in the way the brothers did without warning.

The ultimate sanction short of expulsion was a summons to the 'back room' which was a room not far from the staff room where a more serious beating took place. It was equipped with a horse to bend over and usually two Brothers were present but sometimes it was one of the other masters with a Brother. It was blazer off, trousers and underpants down for a bare arse leathering. Twelve was normal and quite a few more was not uncommon but I certainly had more on my mind than to count when it was happening. No lad even up to eighteen failed to leave that room in tears. I certainly did on my at least once a term visits - probably about average. It left you with an arse that burned and stung for hours afterwards and was a deep shade of purple for about a week.

Almost every morning before leaving home and at the prospect of school, I used to vomit. My parents knew this but believed the Brothers knew how to deliver a good and sound education so I was always told to get on with it and work hard - bearing in mind this happened for eleven years of my life.

It's over, it's passed. I now have no wish to retrospectively claim I was the victim of any sort of abuse - and please, no one be patronising enough to suggest that I was, I'm an adult, now retired and quite capable of making my own decisions. My experience may have been a bit more brutal than that the majority but it was not wildly untypical at the time. The Brothers were known for far worse things than the strap in some places and it would seem that where that was the case, justice has been done and matters should be left to rest.

Claims were very hard to believe against certain people.

It doesn't mean they were not true.

ROLF HARRIS! Ten years ago almost nobody would have said a bad word against him. Now look.

It's worrying that some people here are pushing back against this issue and trying to deny the problem in the past. Why should they be so touchy about it and do so. Makes you wonder just a bit.

To say Campbell should be more or less ignored because he hadn't come forward when he had the chance is dangerous nonsense. Who knows why he chose now to come out with this. There could be as many reasons as that man who won't come back to face the music.

Believe me, if I was 100% innocent and knew it, there is no way I'd sit back and allow such terrible allegations to go unanswered, few could tolerate it. Reputation is everything.

Only in recent years have I come to realise just how abusive one or two of my own teachers actually were. In the early 70s when boys had quite long hair we had one who had a habit of pulling boys hair and another who would kick lads up the backside just because he seemed to like doing it. Neither was a PE teacher mind you.

Alan on 30th July 2022 at 19:01

Once again, where Alan is concerned a person is guilty until proven innocent.

There could be 1001 reasons why the gentleman concerned does not wish to return to the UK, given his age, his health is probably a major consideration but as ever you want to believe the claims and fail to even consider for a moment that they may not be all they seem.

Johan also said that the school he attended was part of the child abuse investigation and he, having been there found allegations made about people he remembered very hard to believe but as ever you ignored that bit of his account in your hurry to assume guilt.

Johan wrote "
Nicky Campbell has used his position to air his account, he had a better forum in which to do it in the very recent past and failed to do so. I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to take him seriously now."

He had apparently responded to an investigation being carried out by Alex Renton, a respected journalist.

Let me put this to you: Mr Campbell on a radio interview this week named the "gentleman" he was accusing. If that man, is innocent, then Mr Campbell has committed a dreadful, dangerous and unforgiveable slander. If somebody accused me of such a grave offence, I would be minded to sue him. Why doesn't he return to the UK and seek his remedies in the courts?.

Perhaps one day, like Ronnie Biggs he will, through age and illness, be forced to return to the UK and break his silence on those matters discussed.

I have to say I pretty much agree with recent posts by Clive, Bernard, & Christopher ... we’ve had some thoughtful comment over recent time and it’s a pity to see things reverting to a slanging match. I particularly appreciated Billy’s recent piece.

@Tanya – Could I suggest this sort of behaviour affected both boys & girls schools – it’s just that its boys schools that seem to get the limelight. Regarding ‘mumsnet’ – I saw a bit of it sometime back when there was a troll called ‘maltamom’ active in variously places including, I think, here. Some of the ladies on it had some rather (to me) strange views. There was the lady who saw two boys going to school in shorts in October and reported the parents to ‘Child Protection’, and a heated discussion over the age at which boys should go into the ‘Men’s’ changing rooms at gyms, swimming pools, etc.

Please let’s keep it polite, folks

(I have to say I’d never heard of ‘Nicky Campbell’ before this came up).

"he aims to silence all and sundry who don't want to agree which him and yet when you confront his behaviour".

Gaslighting. You're descibing yourself.

The bigger question for me is why this Alan seems to push your buttons so badly and triggers you so quickly when he reappears with something that doesn't suit your specific views? If you feel you've got a good case against him and his opinions then take him apart with reasoned, respectful and forensic argument to make your point. The whole manner of this at the moment is self defeating.

I could say much the same to Alan from the opposing viewpoint.

Defeat your opponent with your ideas, not your insults. Fair enough?

'Comment by: Alan on 29th July 2022 at 05:37

You really area an obnoxious little man, you have to turn every comment into an insult or an accusation - I bet you were one of the most verbose of the playground bullies.'

And yet again we see Alan projecting his own behaviour on to others. You only need to scroll back through the pages here to see how he aims to silence all and sundry who don't want to agree which him and yet when you confront his behaviour, it is you who are the bully.

At least most here can see Alan for what he is.

Let's get back to a sensible discussion.

There has just been a very long and very costly enquiry into child abuse in schools, it went on for years. Many gave their accounts there and conclusions were drawn. Surely a man in the media would have known about it, there was enough reporting some of which was about my own school and I have to say, I did not recognise it from the account of two former pupils who gave accounts about a particular teacher who I liked and respected.

If Nicky Campbell wanted to air his issues then surely that was the right and proper place to do it. Equally, the teacher he cites is apparently still alive and living overseas. If he believes he is innocent, why should he return to the UK, face arrest, a lengthy investigation, potentially a trial and conviction if he is settled? Miscarriages of justice occur and while at any time of your life you don't want to be the victim of one, in your later years, perhaps with senses failing, you certainly don't.

Nicky Campbell has used his position to air his account, he had a better forum in which to do it in the very recent past and failed to do so. I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to take him seriously now.

I went to a boys only grammar school in the late 1960's.

Interested in other boys experiences of cross country. We had 2 PE lessons a week, one in the gym, the other cross country - same all year.

Year 1 we had one PE teacher, kit in the gym was shorts, plimsolls, vest, same for cross country (but in the winter we were allowed rugby shirts).

At 11 it was a 2 mile course and I loved running, this all changed in year 2 !

Part way into the year our normal teacher became very ill, so we had a secondment from another school. In normal lessons we saw other classes running, and maybe we should have noticed that they all were shirtless, and in some cased barefoot. Anyway first cross country lesson we discovered the "new order" Everyone had to run stripped to the waist, no matter how cold or wet it was, No talking was allowed, and anyone considered "slow/lazy" was punished. Punishments ranged from running barefoot, to cold showers to a caning.

The new course was longer - 4 miles - and I hated it. Middle of winter, just a pair of shorts on, and the risk of the cane at the end.

Many thanks Alan for that BBC item on Nicky Campbell. Who'd have thought it, I was very surprised but I wonder if I should have been now. Since I began reading here a few months ago it opened my eyes a little and brings an extra dimension with a major radio and TV player like Nicky coming out with that. You could see the pain in his face but I've noticed how easy it is to read the pain in written words too without seeing anyones face or hearing their voice on here with one or two.

This kind of behaviour seems to overwhelmingly affect boys in school doesn't it? That's what it seems to me. I rarely if ever have heard about girls in school dealing with these kind of abusive issues but stories of boys in schooldays come along a lot.

I was a girl at school in the 90's (I left in 2000) and am so pleased I wasn't a boy at school before that time.

Directly personal attacks are unbecoming of this discussion which like Bernard quite rightly said, has improved greatly in recent months with much more thoughtful content. Let's keep it that way.

I think Bernard's closing sentence says it all.

Andy: "Alan inspired effluent"


You really area an obnoxious little man, you have to turn every comment into an insult or an accusation - I bet you were one of the most verbose of the playground bullies.

I made no comment, I just gave a link to the Nicky Campbell article, just to prove what was going on in the 1970s and later, sadly.

I don't suppose it would matter to your (or Bernard) what evidence was put in front of you, as you both seem to be in denial.

One thought occurs though - the teacher who Mr Campbell names is still alive, living overseas, but the police are aware of his identity and activities and he would be charged if he returned to the UK, but he chooses not to. If he - and his past behaviour - was so innocent, why not return and clear his name?. I would - wouldn't you?

In terms of Paul's story from the summer heatwave of 1976 about the mass cold showering of all the O level sitting students that June I rather think that Tony made the perfect comment when he said;

"Leaving the school shower / changing room open in a heatwave to allow pupils access to one to cool down in break times if they'd like to freshen up seems an eminently reasonable and forward thinking policy to me.
But mandating them to do it. No. That's not the school's business to do that when PE lessons aren't involved."


Do you not think that's fair comment Paul? I agree it would be a great idea, but it's not what you do but how you do it.

So if you were doing O levels you were at the end of the old style 5th form as we used to know it. By the time these exams came along many of the classes had effectively ended and you were barely at school full time on a daily basis by June and if you were actually leaving school you probably had more or less left barring going to those exams, after all 5th formers didn't run up the school year until late July and then go off.

So bearing all that in mind many might have already been off school and at home before showing up for an afternoon exam. I speak from experience and many others will relate to that here too.

Now taking that situation you described and placing myself there, if it had been something there to use if I wished to do so for a cool down and freshen up then I'd very possibly have been tempted even if I had to share with a few dozen others at once. But if I'd been "told to" as you put it, then I'd have in those circumstances felt seriously pissed off about it. I'd have semi left school at that stage, why the hell would I be letting some PE teacher who I'd just got rid of off my back dictate to me well after my 16th birthday that I "had to" do such a thing just because it was hot.

In your post you used the term "told to" which suggests no free choice, therefore mandated, essentially forced into it, which is what you said. I'm not aware that any PE teacher would have had any authority to act in such a way well beyond their own subject remit and paramters. They would have been overstepping the mark in a big way acting like that, where you suggest they even had lists and ticked people off to make sure everyone did so.

I'm trying in good faith to make sense of what you've written in the way you wrote it.

We have had a while of sensible discussion on this thread with some interesting contributions. Let's not get back to the situation we had before when some were quick to attack those who recounted experiences which were quite different from theirs.
When I read Paul's contribution my first thought was how sensible of the school. The showering facilities at my school might have struggled a bit to cope with 200 boys in a short space of time but it is conceivable that there were schools whose facilities were geared up to cope with larger numbers. "Forcing" would not have been considered an appropriate word - there was a time when boys were told to do something and they did it - I'm sure most of them would have appreciated being able to cool down.
Andy - you make some good points but we must remember that people like Nicky Campbell would not have received such an enthusiastic audience decades ago. Whilst there is no doubt that stories that he and Ivan tell are of dreadful abuse society these days seems to want to hear these stories in a way that it didn't in days gone by. We are even getting to the stage where it is almost fashionable to have been a victim of something or some-one.

At my secondary school in the 70's we would regularly complain to our PE teachers about the temperature of the showers they sent us into, especially over the colder months coming in from the rain and wind. One day one of these teachers finally flipped about the issue and told us that he wouldn't ask us to do anything he wouldn't do and said he was happy with the temperature they were set at and proceeded to strip down to his underwear and walk into them with some of us still in there just to prove a point and shut some of us up. The water was never hot, never more than barely lukewarm to me. On doing this someone said something along the lines of 'Sir, why are you wearing pants in the shower if we can't', as he'd already told us he wouldn't ask us to do anything he wouldn't. On hearing this he ended up as good as his word and without hesitating took them off in front of us, a sight nobody really expected to see. He stepped back out and put them back on within a handful of seconds. He was quite a young PE teacher, not sure an older one would have done that. Suffice to say that I don't think anyone much complained about the water temperature again although it never got much warmer either. If you had a proper hot shower at school consider yourself rather fortunate. Sharing school showers with your mates is a good old teenage rite of passage that leaves me with some amusing memories. Seeing many of your mates naked for the first time is quite an event isn't it.

Oh dear, I do hope that with the return of Alan we are not getting back to believing that every encounter that anyone had with an adult during their school days was abuse of one sort or another.

There has been some adult discussion here in recent weeks rather than the Alan inspired effluent that had been current for so long supported by the 'Alan handles'.

While Nicky Campbell may have a point he perhaps should have dealt with his issues decades ago. Equally, if you read Stiff Upper Lip by Alex Renton you will see that many of those who now complain of abuse will acknowledge that at the time they knew exactly what they were doing and what they were party to. It's quite eye opening.

You are all absolutely free to doubt away at my account of the summer of 1976 and my 'O' levels. I was there, you were not and I know what happened and you don't. All the faux outrage won't change what happened and I thought by now enough had been said that makes it clear that back then we were living in a different age to now however all I will say is be happy in your doubts. It makes no odds to me at all.

Comment by: Paul on 19th July 2022 at 14:10
I remember the summer of 1976, I was doing my 'O' levels so there was no possibility of any let up from being at school. I remember we were allowed to take off our ties and roll up our sleeves and before the afternoon session started each day we all had to report to the changing room and take a cold shower which was very welcome and probably did something to reduce the smell of about 200 sweaty boys in the exam hall which didn't have great ventilation.

There was no choice about that, one of the PE masters had a list and you name was ticked off as you came out. I don't think it was a problem getting lads to comply, more getting us out once we were in.




Why do you think so many people have trouble taking this account at face value Paul?

I'd quite like our couple of teacher writers on here to pass comment on this. It's the militaristic conscripted style of what you describe happening that gets me most of all. Add my name to the doubters.

Good for Nicky Campbell at the age of 61 deciding to use his available platform to call out his teachers like that. It's never too late.

Incredible post by Ivan a few days ago and then Nicky comes out with his own similar memory in thge national domain.

Massive kudos to you on a very well timed return with that article Alan.

When I read the piece by Ivan last week and he wrote about a teacher effectively sexually assaulting somebody I was anticipating some deniers on here or imagining some would outright disbelieve such a claim. That's before you even get to the other lower level physical goings on such as throwing about. I thought the follow up from Laura was pitched very well in reply.

There is one quote in the Nicky Campbell story that sticks out and is worth highlighting here;

"Those were different times and that has stayed with me all my life."

The "different times" argument is often used by those who seek to excuse certain ways from the past. Well it's not an excuse for a lot of activity is it, especially where physical actions have taken place in whatever manner. I'll separate general nudity attitudes out from that in this instance. Throwing kids about or grabbing their balls was as unacceptable 50 years ago as it is now. As Ivan wrote last week, the only difference is that these people did get away with it and some of them were extremely crafty and clever. Nicky says it has stayed with him all his life, of course it has. Why would anyone just forget the moment they left school. This actual forum proves that decades pass and people have incredibly vivid and detailed memories of what they enjoyed and endured in their school, especially surrounding PE and all that it threw at them.

When Nicky said "Being in a changing room at 10 years old - after rugby - seeing a teacher abuse my friend. I cannot describe it here and I can never un-see it." that was literally the same as what Ivan told us last week when he wrote about seeing the teacher grab a member of his class by his penis and testicles wasn't it. The sadness is that none of them ever told as the article says. You have to wonder if what Ivan wrote on this history forum last week was the first time he had ever told that after so much time.

There will be a few people who might not like the discussion turning to this kind of thing again but I do think it is perfectly legitimate and for my own part I've found recent months on here to be a far more interesting read with some fresher input.

Howard. your comments are interesting. At least when i started Secondary school 1961, I was following my brother who was already attending there. So I more or less knew the arrangements for P e. Nevertheless, my father attended a parents evening a few weeks prior to the start of the school year and when he came home he explained to me all about uniform , lessons etc, which as I say I was aware of. He did explain pe would be done in shirts only( no underwear) and no top when indoors and plimsolls without socks. so I was prepared for this. Parents did not not question the schools rules.
I expect you did find it disconcerting at first to find out that on that first day pe was in pants only. Most unusual. Still as you say you were all the same, and in that era I think the only underwear worn was white briefs.
showers were available to us but not compulsory and only a few lads used them.

Here is the experience of somebody quite famous, who names names and this happened in the 1970s:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62308621