Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Ellis on 6th April 2024 at 01:29
"I'm in the States, Janet with her UK boys class sounds about right for the time. When I was in grade school in the 80's, up to 12 years old or so, the female PE teacher (Mrs Harrison who must have been around 30-35) would walk quite shamelessly and brazenly into the boys locker room to hurry us along in the shower and would cop a direct eyeful of the lot of us with not a stitch on between any of us and just stand there looking on. The worst bit was you couldn't act up about it and openly show you were embarrassed about it, either in front of the teacher or your mates. Mrs Harrison obviously held to the view that modesty and bashful wasn't part of a normal boy's vocabulary and it's an obvious double standard applied to our gender only."





Yes I agree with you it's a bit of a liberty and smacks of a complete lack of empathy to a certain degree and pushing the boundaries a bit too far in your case, and yes such a clear double standard involved where you know full it couldn't work in reverse, male teacher to girls. Knowing what Americans are like for the compensation culture you could claim for lifelong trauma it caused and gain a multi million dollar payout down the line! Actually don't do that, it's not worth it.

I'm in the States, Janet with her UK boys class sounds about right for the time. When I was in grade school in the 80's, up to 12 years old or so, the female PE teacher (Mrs Harrison who must have been around 30-35) would walk quite shamelessly and brazenly into the boys locker room to hurry us along in the shower and would cop a direct eyeful of the lot of us with not a stitch on between any of us and just stand there looking on. The worst bit was you couldn't act up about it and openly show you were embarrassed about it, either in front of the teacher or your mates. Mrs Harrison obviously held to the view that modesty and bashful wasn't part of a normal boy's vocabulary and it's an obvious double standard applied to our gender only.

Another old grammar schoolboy here from the mid seventies and it was a school with a high status physical education ethos. Now that's all well and good when you are gifted or naturally great at physical sports and have aptitude, you can sail through but those who struggle end up finding their lives are nothing but a kick to the self esteem on the receiving end of never ending destructive remarks from PE teachers. I saw this with my own eyes happening to boys who did their best but it was never good enough.

One or two PE teachers where I went seemed a bit too handy with the pushing about and the overly physical part of the education if you know what I mean by that. I was in the gym once and laughed at something another kid had done and got a judo move from my PE teacher that took me off my feet and landed me flat on the floor without warning. We were not doing judo at the time. The same teacher once jumped in the showers and pulled me out for talking too much and told me to sit with my legs crossed against the wall and my hands on my head along with the other boy I was talking with. I was being too loud apparently. We sat naked on our bare backsides on the floor, legs crossed, hands on heads and in silence while the rest of class carried on around us and got dressed. I definitely went to a grammar where a couple of PE teachers liked to openly humiliate and everyone probably had their tale of a time when something happened to them as well. We all did.

If I'd been bad at physical education or been one of the terribly sensitive types it would have been far worse, luckily I could brush it off but others can't do that with some of these characters of the past and some of the worst ones taught in some of the best schools, not the state school dumps.

Boys at school either respond well to the kind of PE we did in the past or they don't and that divide seems to have been shown up on this forum very clearly doesn't it.

Greg2

"What is it about gym teachers, that they were usually such disciplinarians, and so traditionally sergeant major strict?"

In my case we actually had, in succession, two ex-army PE Sergeant instructors. On the whole, they were good guys. They didn't stand any messing around, but they always treated us with respect. The gym was isolated from the main school buildings, where the showers etc. were, so the PE instructor never bothered us while changing, showering etc.

Comment by: Mark R on 4th April 2024 at 19:24


I know everyone has heard more than enough about my views on school, but I will just say that the best thing that happened to my school was the day the men from Costain Ltd came to raise it to the ground. They achieved what the Luftwaffe didnr!

Comment by: Rupert on 3rd April 2024 at 02:18
Your post was interesting to read Rupert, and an accurate account of those times. Your years in school corresponded with mine and I could relate to much of what you said, even down to the pristine all white gym kit requirements. It really was as though we were all sent through a preliminary or preparatory version of national service once we stepped over that threshold into the gym changing room. Even the atmosphere in there was entirely different to any other school room. Certainly, none of it was what we expected when it was all new to us.

I wonder what this was and why? What is it about gym teachers, that they were usually such disciplinarians, and so traditionally sergeant major strict? Perhaps it’s something to do with their interests being focused on exercising our growing bodies, and what we could all attain and look like; rather than educating our expanding minds, and what we could all learn and fill them with? Perhaps there’s something deeply instinctive within human psyche that gym teachers tap into when in charge of demanding physical activity, which even permitted ordering us all to strip off and shower, compared to someone just teaching an academic subject, where everyone just sat in a classroom?

It’s true that certain types enjoyed and benefitted from being ordered about and directed into what to do. Some even needed it, others didn’t. Just reading the conflicting comments on here confirms this.

Who agrees with this video about their education at school?

We all know the song of course, but I saw the video for the first time just recently. Made me think it might resonate with the likes of people such as Alan and others that think in that way about school.

Another Brick In The Wall - Pink Floyd.

https://youtu.be/YR5ApYxkU-U?feature=shared

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:15
@Sean - I'm not Chris G but the ISPs I got from the start until, say five weeks ago were:
3.254
3.221
3.235 4
3.248 2
3.230
3.226 4
3.244 11
3.225 2
3.212 12
3.129 22
3.160 2
3.237 2
3.132 4
3.144

The second number was the number of times used, although not sequentially








What is the point of this comment above?

Orson yesterday on 3rd April.

I wouldn't pay taxes if they didn't make me either. Such is life and we all get told we have to do things we don't wish to do.

You are most welcome Matthew S.

I think there's a real problem in the country when those of us who did a decent and professional hard days work very many years ago in school are now looked back on as borderline criminal or placed under suspicion for doing some perfectly normal and innocent activities in how we ran our classes.

At primary school from 1976-79 I never had to write a letter home, make a phone call or ask someone else to on my behalf because of any unhappy problems regards any PE class or general teaching I did and there is not one parent evening I can ever remember where anybody elected to bring up unhappiness about the conduct of myself or general teaching, or anyone who mentioned the PE kit, the taking of showering or my involvement despite everything being perfectly open and transparent. I have no memory of any parent or guardian making any written approaches either suggesting any problems.

Stephen - look at:
Hesketh Fletcher Gym Tean
Dec 4th 2923
Comment by Ryan
Line 7 or thereabouts

Comment by: Newton on 3rd April 2024 at 03:20
Almost everyone showed reluctance about heading into the showers at school when I first faced them in 1980 and if they had not been compulsory and we had not been forced into doing it I very much doubt many of us would have gone in them at PE time.




I agree with this comment. I think this was probably the feeling in schools across the country for almost everyone wasn't it?

Pat, female or male Pat by the way?

Could you identify where you read that so that I can look and put it in context.

I think it depends how the bare nipple was touched doesn't it. Touching a boy's bare nipple is probably not on the same scale as touching a girl, whose would be covered anyway. If the girl was simply doing PE properly and holding the boy in some way and touched his nipple in that manner then there is nothing to answer about or wrong with that, although it's a bit distasteful to make a thing of it in the playground I agree but that's just the nature of some immature children really isn't it. However if the girl was deliberately setting out to humiliate while in the lesson by way of actually making a point of touching the nipple or tweaking it then that's quite different altogether.

That's how I see it anyway, I'm not a teacher though.

This is directed at Janet and the other teachers who had boys go shirtless in mixed lessons. I present quotes from a comment posted under another photo on this site:

"I was forced into those kind of situations at school a lot at that age in the early 90s where girls shared the school gym alongside boys such as myself who had to present ourselves for our teacher in gym shorts and shirtless. There was a girl who had to hold onto me in PE and touched my bare nipple and made a bit of a thing about that in the playground after PE, so embarrassing"

There was more in this comment, but these were the most relevant quotes that describe an incident I'd like the teachers' thoughts on.

Specifically, I'd like to ask the teachers who posted on this site:

1. If one of your male students told you this happened to him, would you believe him? What would be your response?
2. If you witnessed this occurring yourself, what would you do?
3. Would this have convinced you to let boys wear tops if they wanted to?
4. Assuming this actually happened, how serious would you/your school consider this incident? On a scale of insignificant to expulsion worthy and beyond.

Comment by: Tony on 3rd April 2024 at 12:56


I.."I suspect that in cases such as this there are far more quiet victims who never come forward and say anything at all. I'm reminded of a friend I had who had a term getting secretly bullied by two boys at school and was so ashamed he would not tell anyone because he thought it reflected badly on him and made him look weak and pathetic."


I really agree with this. I myself was bullied because I was about the youngest and smallest kid in my class especially in the first two years, and you feel helpless and hopeless. The kids who do it would have denied it, the teachers, not wanting trouble, would have accepted those denials (and even when they saw incidents in the playground would look the other way), and if there were problems at home, an 11/12 year old's would have looked small fry. Of course there is that element of making you feel weak and pathetic, and embarrassed.

I hasten to add that my problems were not on the scale of the children's home kids we have been talking about, or even in my own school. One of my best friends was bullied unmercifully, and had a very unhappy home life. - he died, after an illness, in December 2022. I was luckier than him in all respects.

I think the police must be very sure of their case to name the man concerned who has been on the run for 27 years, and to have spent so long hunting him down.

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:08


I was just making the point Tim that we all get older - to take the argument to it's logical conclusion, had Hitler lived another thirty/forty years he, too, would have been an old man, possibly with a walking stick - would anyone feel sorry for him?. We will never know the damage he inflicted on already damaged children 50 years ago - some sympathy for them would not come amiss.

On your unfounded and incorrect insinuations about my posts - where do you imagine I can possibly go at 4 or 5 in the mornings to send all these messages?. I can assure you I am at my home, and ALL messages I have sent since this childish argument developed last autumn have carried my email address.

Everyone has a unique writing style, and I repeat I only write for myself as myself. - as a Yorkshireman would say - I say what I mean and I mean what I bloody well say. I am a Londoner by the way.

I do not intend to answer any more of these ludicrous insinuations, I know I am telling the truth, and you should be able to tell different writing styles.., as well as punctuation etc.

As it was me who suggested the IP system in the first place to stop all the puerile nonsense about me being about six different posters, I am hardly likely to sabotage it, am I?.

I can't explain why these different numbers crop up, but I am happy for you that you have nothing better to do than count them.

I am having a quiet week myself, Tim, , but not THAT quiet!

A lot more than 21 posts actually Malcolm.

I'm more amazed that you've posted 117 posts - ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTEEN on the thread since the IP tags started only three months ago Alan and that so many of them are written in the middle of the night and are actually quite lengthy too. Yes I counted back I was so curious after seeing Tim and Malcolm's comments.

It's not really a criticism, I almost admire your persistence with it all if that's your thing. The IP's don't really have any meaning do they Tim.

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:15

I'm not sure that means a great deal.

I know this is belated and she may not see it, but just to say: thank you, Janet, for answering my question and for contributing your recollections.

Please stop talking in riddles. If you have any proof of anything not seeming quite right then provide it openly or inform the moderator. Actually it is their job to be aware of things and vet posts before they appear anyway.

To answer your question Sean, the only person who must have made at least twenty one comments in the past three months is Alan isn't it. It was only a matter of time before someone showed their hand on here and said they'd been checking through all the IP numbers, I'm surprised it took so long.

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the IP numbering along the bottom of posts here and pay them no attention, I take each actual comment as it comes along for what it's worth and leave it at that.

May I suggest that this is not something that needs to divert the conversation here and if there is anyone who wishes to make a thing of it then there are means to go direct to the moderator of this site.

@Sean - I'm not Chris G but the ISPs I got from the start until, say five weeks ago were:
3.254
3.221
3.235 4
3.248 2
3.230
3.226 4
3.244 11
3.225 2
3.212 12
3.129 22
3.160 2
3.237 2
3.132 4
3.144

The second number was the number of times used, although not sequentially. (I hope the formatting works!)

Work, work, work ...

Alan's recent comments on my post of 18.30 on the 2nd, which didn't mention him.

Alan: You say: 'If he had faced the music in 1997 he would be a free man now having paid his debt to decent society' - this assumes his guilt - remember; 'Innocent until proven guilty'. Have you ever known anyone who was innocent being found guilty? I have ...

You mentioned. I think, an old phrase - an 'Eye for an Eye, ...'. There is another old phrase: 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.

And remember - I called the guy 'despicable' ...

Chris G, maybe you can be brave enough to tell us who you are talking about here and list the 21. I'm intrigued by your findings which you obviously had enough time to go finding out!

@ Chris G - your figure doesn't surprise me. I ran a check a few weeks ago and reached 14, but with ISPs not following each other sequentially - it was all very random. If I were getting these results on my PC set-up I think I'd be wanting to make a few enquiries with my Internet Service Provider.

And I, too, have better things to do.

Not a Bot

T

Tim H

Trivial, I know, and I actually have better things to do with my life, but you might be intrigued to know that the poster that you allude to has had no less than twenty-one different IP addresses logged since the system was introduced at the end of December.

I'd suggest that the 80 year old whose been on the run for 27 years must certainly be gaga, the term used here, simply for the fact he came back into the country through Heathrow and thought he wasn't going to get picked up just because 27 years had gone by. The law never forgets absconders like that.

I also agree with you Alan, I don't know full details of his story but I have no sympathy at all and what you say I agree with every word actually, you might be pleased to know! I suspect that in cases such as this there are far more quiet victims who never come forward and say anything at all. I'm reminded of a friend I had who had a term getting secretly bullied by two boys at school and was so ashamed he would not tell anyone because he thought it reflected badly on him and made him look weak and pathetic.

It occurs to me that a lot of readers will not be aware of the case Tim and myself were discussing. At the risk of being accused of trawling the newspapers again, I append one report:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/richard-burrows-most-wanted-fugitive-arrested-heathrow-london-thailand-b1148877.html


Offences in a childrens home - how low can you get?. Those kids had problems already. It's even worse than at school - at least you can go home - these children WERE "at home". Those men and women will now be in their sixties. those who have survived..

Interesting that the accused had been in Thailand - given that country's reputation with the likes of Gary Glitter. I assume it was a bit like the Ronnie Biggs case - went on the run for years, then, when the money ran out, and health problems came along, they both decided to return home for free treatment.

Almost everyone showed reluctance about heading into the showers at school when I first faced them in 1980 and if they had not been compulsory and we had not been forced into doing it I very much doubt many of us would have gone in them at PE time.

Comment by: TimH on 2nd April 2024 at 18:32



..."Finally - on the TV news tonight there was a bit about:
An 80-year-old suspected paedophile ... arrested at Heathrow after nearly 30 years on the run over allegations of historical sexual abuse against young boys.
Despicable actions ... but I saw a shambling, partially deaf, frightened old man, walking with a stick - not many years older than me - 'every person should be presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty'."

If only I had played the violin instead of the trumpet I would have given a rendition of Hearts & Flowers, Tim.

This now old man was arrested and charged when he was 53. he ran away to escape his trial 27 years ago. That in itself speaks volumes, in my opinion. Hardly the actions of an innocent man (a bit like the two teachers of similar ages fighting extradition to Scotland from South Africa where they ran away to after being charged with historical sex crimes of a disgusting nature). He might be partially deaf and walk with a stick, but he wasn't; and didn't when he committed the offences for which he is charged. His victims have got older too, and they probably remember every day what was done to them.

Don't waste your sympathy on him, Tim - no doubt when he shambles into court he will have been instructed by his defence barrister to appear as gaga as possible. Even IF he gets a custodial sentence, you can be sure he will spend it in the hospital prison, and get early release. In my view, men like this, who commit appalling crimes, ought to feel the full vigour of the law, whether they committed the offence last year or sometime in the 1970s.

Where do you draw the line?. When does somebody become too old to face justice, a sort of perk of old age? - and when does a victim become too old to expect justice for something done to them in childhood or young adulthood? What age should we wipe the slate clean?

If he had faced the music in 1997 he would be a free man now having paid his debt to decent society