Burnley Grammar School

I don't consider red tissue paper to be that grisly.

This just shows how the same thing can be perceived so differently by two people. Sean would loved to have played the main part, whipped his top off and got plastered in fake blood, while Alan finds it dreadful and should not have taken place, although if it's anything like how I remember such things in school we got to choose parts and I'm sure the 'sacrifice' wanted to do that part. Nobody would ever suggest boys in school would be made to do that if they were too shy to do so.

I think it's just an entertaining way to educate, no more than that. Quite strong as a thing to do I will admit though but it's a real part of world history. Much of the history I was taught was so dull and uninspiring and the eras just didn't appeal to me at all.


Nicholas J - Good to hear your own positive story surrounding your own introduction to secondary school PE requirements and that by being made to shower with no clothes with others it appears to have cured your own anxieties you thought you had about yourself.


Yvette - That is so typically French. I found an item about that right here;

https://www.indy100.com/viral/class-celebrates-end-of-year-with-naked-photo-including-their-teacher-7490026

Comment by: Bernard on 28th February 2024 at 22:37


Bernard. When I was kid they played an old film on TV one Sunday afternoon called The Guinea Pig. It was so old that Richard Attenborough was wearing short trousers (he was in his late twenties at the time, though!) and Kathleen Harrison played his mum. The story was how a common little Londoner, like me, got a scholarship to a grammar school. So we started out with the typical "Gawd blimey, love-a-duck guvnor" average schoolboy, the sort that Pinewood turned out, and he became this plum-in-the-mouth, "Ooh, how simply top hole, sir" lad, making sycophantic attempts to ingratiate himself with his form master, Robert Flemying. It sickened me then, and it still does. I don't envy you your "minimal kit" and regimented regime, and the "head boy" inflicting summary justice with his belt any more today than I would have then. I think I would have been more unhappy at one of those monuments to snobbery and authority than I was at my old dump, which at least had no pretensions. Like "Emmerdale" it was bad and it knew it.

I don't like uniforms on children, whether it is school, the scouts, or anything else. We should be individuals and treated like it from day one. As regards those PE lads in London wearing slightly different clothing - though most wear the same blue top, they are comfortable and that is all that matters to me. I am sure, had they felt unduly hot, they would have removed their top, but the fact they didn't speaks for itself that this is a school, that doesn't inflict petty rules just for the sake of them. They had to be good to progress to GCSE standard. Believe me, it costs more to dress down these days than it does to dress up (go in any branch of SuperDry and check it out for yourself). I know I had two suits when I was on public view in my music days, and a couple of the other lads spent a fortune on looking as though they had just come back from a construction site, but that didn't matter, because we were all expressing ourselves sartorially as well as musically, and we were comfortable in so doing. Uniforms always seems to me to suggest that people prefer the box to the chocolates.


Comment by: Matthew S on 28th February 2024 at 23:02



I wonder if your teacher was as nice as she made herself out to be, Matthew?. After all, I dare say George Joseph Smith, the Brides In The Bath killer must have made a good impression on at least four poor women who ended up being drowned on their honeymoons, or the late Dr. Shipman and his bedside manner with old ladies.

Again here - as we see so often on the site - we see a (woman, in this case - usually men), on an ego trip. They crave power, just like politicians. They like to tell you what to do, however unpleasant it might be (just like the other Matthew and his shirt). Due to their overweening sense of entitlement they would be horrified if they had to do the things they tell others to do.

I am astonished the headmaster or mistress allowed the grisly entertainment to go ahead. I suppose it shows who wore the trousers at your school. So often at schools in the past (perhaps today as well? I don't know) it seems to have been a case of the tail wagging the dog. Had I been the head, I wouldn't have allowed it.


Comment by: Orson on 28th February 2024 at 23:30
Matthew K on 25th Feb.

"I have no time for anyone who sets out to deliberately humiliate a child on purpose. I said as much when I posted back on 26th Jan for the first time. I had my shorts and pants pulled down climbing a school gym rope and was exposed briefly and the teacher laughed."

Believe me Orson that happened at our school all the time - with the same reaction from the teacher (he probably enjoyed it more than the boys who did it). It certainly happened to me once, but we didn't have the underpants. It is supposed not to happen now because teachers are supposed to "respect" the pupils. I wonder?

Comment by: Yvette on 28th February 2024 at 18:53


"I come from Avignon. Some years ago our school, Lycée Frederic Mistral here in France were at the end of the school academic year, all the boys and girls in one of the science classes posed naked or almost naked for a photograph with their teacher. They were all over age sixteen may I add. There were fifty participants on this. There was no reason, just originality and something a little different that would make others think"

Yvette, what can I say, except that it only makes me think I am glad we left the EU!.

Comment by: Matthew S on 28th February 2024 at 23:02
Matthew K had a hard time of it.


Indeed he did. I was a pretty fearless character at school and took on anything that came my way without thinking too much about it but that was just plain rotten wasn't it and I would not have liked to be treated like that. I would have thrown some drink back at the other kid and made sure he had to take his clothing off too if that was the teachers insistence.

A really great post Matthew S and I liked reading your Aztec story. I would have jumped at the chance to be the one in the lead role having myself sacrificed with tissue paper and a bare chest. I'd have been disappointed they were only using tissue paper for blood and not something that actually looked like the real thing and would trickle over me properly.

In my earlier schools I used to love getting myself covered in paint or any other messy things. The more mess created the better.

My old dad used to tell me that worrying was for idiots. You're right about too much thinking and anticipating, or ruminating. There was a boy I was at school with who was always going on about his fear of dying, at just 13 years old! He actually did die when he was 29 of alcohol abuse sadly. A sweet guy too. But at least it stopped him thinking about dying for another 60 or 70 years.

Don't worry, be happy!

Responding to - Matthew S on 28th February 2024.

"I would feel a small twinge of discomfort as I pulled my white cotton T-shirt up and over my head, leaving me bare-chested, but I would be fine in the lesson after that. Odd, isn't it, how sometimes the anticipation of something like that can be worse than the actuality?"



It's often the way Matthew isn't it. All of us back in the day used to have a bit of anxiety about "going up" as it was called, to our secondary schools or perhaps in some cases grammars. I went up to mine in autumn of '78.

When we got the pre-secondary school visit pep talk with someone from the school there was a threesome of teachers, one was a PE teacher, the other two were I think the deputy head and a maths teacher or something like that. We got heaps of information to fill our heads with and when one of the teachers began talking PE he mentioned showering was expected of us. I remember someone shouting "do we have to be naked" and "of course" coming back the answer. Oh my God I thought, so it's true what they say, certain rumours about such things had been doing the rounds for ages I seem to remember that spring and summer.

I spent the next couple of months and a lot of time during the summer holidays thinking about this quietly to myself and worrying myself senseless over it. Like others have already said of themselves, I too was not the kind of youngster to remove my shirt voluntarily, or take it off when needed with ease and confidence. So the prospect of everything having to come off and show my most intimate body parts, showing and getting my willy out for all to see was a bit stomach churning at the time and I really didn't want to be doing that at all. I kept imagining in my head the scene at school doing such a thing and hoping desperately that I'd get a teacher that didn't ask us to.

When the day finally came I had long resigned myself to doing so and had many weeks to deal with my thoughts about it, such as, will I be made fun of, or what will it be like, or will I cope. Well I did cope, and one school shower washed away many of my fears as well as any sweat I had on me. It was a bit awkward, it would be as a new thing first time like anything, but it was OK and nobody laughed at me or anyone else. It was a shower, and I was in and out in under 5 minutes. When I'd got dressed and was walking back across the school I had this feeling of achievement. I know that sounds quite weird but it's true. I'd done it and I was OK, all was fine and I had got through it smoothly. My anxieties evaporated almost instantly and I suddenly came to realise that I wasn't quite as body shy as I must have thought I was for so long and was simply nothing more than a bit of a worrier. The doing was nothing, the thinking was everything.

I realise that not everybody will have felt the same way and other people will have held the same worries and not had the same outcome as me.

Comment by: Bev on 25th February 2024 at 22:32
Big muscly bodies aren't everything. I used to like looking at the skinny boys the most. In first and second year at my Kent upper school we sometimes shared PE and boys had no shirts on. This will be right back to 1972. My advice, don't worry about it, you looked lovely, and the boys in Steven's clip remind me of the boys I used to share PE with at that age and none should be bashful about it.




That's all very well for you to say Bev!

I was actually 15 years old in 1972 and although my body was average to okay looking, neither too thin or too chunky I loathed PE because we shared it with girls like you in half the gym lessons and the boys were simply not allowed to get away with wearing anything on top and were always instructed to into go to gym classes sporting a bare chest, even in mixed company from the age of 11 until I was 15.

Like others say here, I think I would have always been more comfortable and enjoyed the lessons more wearing a top of some kind, even just a basic vest.

In an all boys school I'd have felt less concerned I think.

Matthew K on 25th Feb.

I have no time for anyone who sets out to deliberately humiliate a child on purpose. I said as much when I posted back on 26th Jan for the first time. I had my shorts and pants pulled down climbing a school gym rope and was exposed briefly and the teacher laughed.

In your case I don't know quite what to think. The teacher sounded ignorant. I've been to the place you mentioned, it was in Kensington I think. Perhaps she had sons of her own who liked being shirtless in the warm and thought everyone else did. I can't fathom someone thinking that was the correct decision to make in that place.

Give the shirtless ballot a go I say to Nathan, any information is useful. I think it would end up a 50/50 split actually.

Matthew K had a hard time of it.

Don't mind my sharing a few disparate recollections prompted by this thread.

When I was nine years old in the early nineties, our class was studying the
Aztecs, learning about the Spanish conquest under Cortes. Our teacher, an experienced middle-aged lady, told us we would re-enact an Aztec human sacrifice in our class assembly in front of the school (using a lot of red tissue paper). Sorry if this is a little grotesque; the relevance will become clear.

In the actual performance and in the dress rehearsal beforehand, the boy playing the 'victim' was in his PE shorts (nothing else: boys' usual dress for indoor PE). I and the other boy escorting him wore a dining-room curtain each tied round our bare shoulders, provided by my parents, in addition to PE shorts.

We led him up to the front, where he lay down on two stage blocks and the child playing the Emperor Montezuma would pretend to pull out a cardboard 'heart'. (We were surprisingly sanguine about all this; I read somewhere that young children are more likely to be upset by reading a story about something close to their experience - being separated from a parent at a railway station, say - but I digress).

I had previously been rather self-conscious at infant school about doing PE in just shorts, but now had managed to shove any trace of discomfort to the back of my mind most of the time. I remember thinking, though, that I really did not envy the boy playing the 'victim', not because of the horrible subject matter, but because 450 children and more than a dozen teachers would see him up on stage wearing next to nothing. He gave no sign of minding, but I don't know what he thought.

The other incident was the same school year, with the same teacher. She was equable and kind, friendly, so this is somewhat surprising.

It was summer; for PE lessons indoors, the whole class would change into white shorts, white T-shirts, socks and plimsolls in our mobile classroom, then cross the playground, file around the front of the school building, through the main doors and go to the hall.

Then our teacher would give the instruction: "Girls, take off your plimsolls and socks; boys, take off your plimsolls, socks, and shirts".

I would feel a small twinge of discomfort as I pulled my white cotton T-shirt up and over my head, leaving me bare-chested, but I would be fine in the lesson after that. Odd, isn't it, how sometimes the anticipation of something like that can be worse than the actuality?

On the occasion I recall, once the class had put shirts and plimsolls to one side and boys and girls were all sitting cross-legged on the parquet, our teacher said portentously: "A boy -" it was her half-merciful habit when very displeased to outline a child's fault to the whole class without naming them - "a boy has asked if he can keep his shirt on during PE. It says in the school rules that all boys in the lower school, Year 3 and Year 4, must do PE bare-chested".

I never knew who it was. Nor do I understand why on earth our normally kindly teacher should have been so offended by the boy simply asking the question.

Alan - that clip certainly did look relaxed and informal but I am not convinced that is a good thing. Some of the boys don't really look as though they are exerting themselves - certainly not in the way we were expected to. We were expected to put a lot of effort in and ended up very sweaty in our minimal kit and unheated gym. We would have been very uncomfortable if we had been wearing as much as those boys!
Part of the problem here revolves around one's attitude to school uniforms. My school was a grammar school and we had a set everyday uniform and a set p.e. uniform. The nearby secondary modern school also had an everyday uniform but were a bit more relaxed about boys p.e. kit until it was tightened up to match ours after I had been at grammar school for a year. Uniforms were designed to reduce possible differences in clothing, making the boys from more affluent families look the same as those from poorer families and were fairly successful in this. I think this is a good idea and have got used to the idea of school uniforms which is one reason I think the boys in the clip look untidy as a group.

Regards the Mickey Grant and Graeme comments on discovering people and their attitudes to personal modesty, or not.

During the first lockdown in April 2020 I'd been working from home for about two or three weeks and was taking regular video conferencing to colleagues in our ceramics business all through the day. I'd set up my work station in our outhouse conservatory as a temporary measure but when talking to others at work noticed they seemed to be using spare rooms upstairs to conduct business.

While taking a video call on my largescreen desktop with one of my male colleagues from his bedroom we'd been going through our moans and groans about our new style working arrangements and concerns how to continue successfully running the business like that when in through the door behind him came his teenage son with a towel over his head, unable to initially see what was going on, rubbing his hair dry and completely naked behind his father who was unaware, and the son was unaware for a couple of seconds too but when he realised you have never seen anyone run out a room so rapidly. He apologised profusely and we laughed it off as one of the new occupational hazards to guard against.

When I got off the conference video call and spoke to my wife I remember saying I couldn't imagine any of ours at that age so openly walking around the home with us in it like that. Some of us, whatever age are naturally easy when it comes to such things except when they get caught unexpectedly on dad's webcam while he's at work. My colleague had thought his son did it deliberately to show him up but it didn't look like it to me and I said so, although he said the son had an online You Tube channel involving practical jokes on friends.

I come from Avignon. Some years ago our school, Lycée Frederic Mistral here in France were at the end of the school academic year, all the boys and girls in one of the science classes posed naked or almost naked for a photograph with their teacher. They were all over age sixteen may I add. There were fifty participants on this. There was no reason, just originality and something a little different that would make others think. I am unaware how the suggestion first came about. The class were all in what we call their 'terminale' year and soon to leave.

Comment from Mickey Grant (February 24 2024 at 21:41):
"Is it too much of a side-step to muse what guys wore as sleepwear in mid/late teens? I was always T/boxers and hadn't had PJs for years. At our sixth form induction residential I was surprised the variation - from proper PJs through to just PJ bottoms or boxers.

I guess I didn't voluntarily go shirtless often at all!"

Thinking back a bit further to my early teens I wore PJs. Slowly discarded clothing through my mid-teens until by 17 I was sleeping in just boxers. Might be too much information but 20 years later that's still the case most nights.

Reading Chris G's comment about vests (February 28 2024 at 11:15) - thinking back to mid 90s I remember being one of the last boys in class who still wore them. We'd certainly all ditched them by about age nine when swimming lessons started. I've never worn one since. Trying to get back on topic of PE I think getting changed was a contributing factor - if nobody else is still wearing them why am I? sort of thing.

Hated swimming lessons at school and left not really able to swim. A few years later in my early 20s I confronted my fears/bad memories and had some private lessons which were a lot more successful though I'm still not confident in open water. Not sure why I hated it so much in school but don't think the shirtless element had anything to do with it - as I said in my comment a few weeks back once you're in you really don't notice you're just wearing shorts.

Needless to say I'm another one who was hardly ever voluntary shirtless away from my bed. I think I was always too concerned about what others might think and not meeting unrealistic ideals. Looking back maybe I should've done it a bit more and just learned to ignore negativity.

(Apologies if all this is a bit rambling and/or too far off-topic)

Tim H:

I have nothing against anybody's lifestyle - just as long as I don't have to take an active role in it, but, a bit like the Northern Line , there are two branches of Steampunk (I have seen Steamphunk as an alternative spelling). There is the "dressing up" element. like with Goths or Skinheads, and the engineering one. Here for example are details of one of several books on the topic:

https://www.awesomebooks.com/book/9781907621031/steampunk-victorian-futurism-bizarre-engineering/used

There is quite an element of this back to the past sort of thing on the West Coast in the States, I don't think it has taken hold quite so much in the UK.

Though not quite the same thing I know a writer and experimenter in America called Pete Friedrichs who wrote a book called "The Voice of the Crystal" where he made one of these basic radio sets, but made each separate part by hand with found materials. I used to have a concession with some small esoteric publishing company in the US which ended when the company did (the sole proprietor retired seven or eight years ago.)


Tony:

Yes, you raise an interesting question. The only childhood I lived through was my own, and it wasn't especially a happy one, made far worse by that school I attended, so you could be right, but, given what happened to one of my friends there, I would be very cautious/suspicious of certain teachers and their methods. I would be ultra alert though if I had an unhappy son or daughter, and generally you find this is through bullying - these days more often by fellow pupils, but in my school by some of the teachers as well.

My comment this morning by the way was not directed at any current poster - it was, I suppose, inspired by reading last week the early pages and seeing some of the questionable conversations, and not that long ago we had somebody who had claimed to see, in an unspecified location, at an unspecified school, dozens of shirtless schoolboys in a playing field two weeks running in December at a time when throughout the country it was very wet and very cold. That was the sort of thing I was getting at..

Comment by: Alan on 28th February 2024 at 04:13
I genuinely am not targeting anybody in this group, and I have no wish to offend, but I just do not understand why so many middle aged men want to see lads without their tops on, and what good does it do them if they are forced into it?. I just throw that in to the discussion for what it is worth, which is probably not a lot as I have no teenage offspring of my own. Discuss, as they say.



But do they Alan? That's not quite how I read the discussion. It's just a PE chat and I think it's teased out some interesting points along the way actually. I'll always treat you with the utmost respect and have previously been sympathetic to some of the points you make.

The other point about offspring, have you not noticed how interesting it is that those who come here and had their children at school throughout the time frames discussed on here are rarely expressing too much concern themselves, such as the man who came on here just recently with four sons. So you raise a point worth noting on that. Maybe if you'd had children of your own it might have given more perspective.

But first and foremost everyone on here is speaking about themselves or for themselves and it's been interesting seeing everyone comparing notes.

For all the chat about men on here in teaching, one of the worst examples of a teacher has been a woman just a few days ago. I'm still amazed a female teacher made a 12 year old boy do such a thing like Matthew did on his school visit. What also interested me about Matthew K's story was that the teacher there was confident enough in her own decision making to then write a note home straight to the parents to tell them what she had done with their son!

Comment by: Mickey Grant on 24th February 2024 at 21:41 (Relayed by Graeme)

"Is it too much of a side-step to muse what guys wore as sleepwear in mid/late teens? I was always T/boxers and hadn't had PJs for years. At our sixth form induction residential I was surprised the variation - from proper PJs through to just PJ bottoms or boxers."

As a pre-teen in the mid 20th century, my normal sleep attire was traditional pyjamas worn with a vest underneath - Mum was very keen on vests - but no underpants, which both Dad and Mum regarded as unhygienic.

On hot days during my primary school years, Mum reluctantly accepted that I didn't need a vest, but it was not until the summer following my tenth birthday that I went without one from the start of the summer term until school went back in September.

Of course, as I wasn't wearing a vest during the daytime, it didn't make sense to wear one under my PJ top at night, so I didn't, but didn't broadcast the fact. So, when July produced a persistent heatwave, and Mum, to her credit but blissfully unaware that I wasn't wearing a vest under my PJs, suggested that I leave off my PJ top for the duration, as Dad was already doing, she inadvertently introduced me to sleeping topless. She saw the funny side of this, and nothing more was said until I went back to school, when she insisted that I should be wearing vests again. There was no arguing on this point, and t was only when topless PE was introduced at secondary school two or three years later that I succeeded in getting rid of vests altogether.

The funny thing is that she didn't bat an eyelid when I didn't go back to wearing either vests or PJ tops to bed, and it wasn't long before I discarded clingy PJ trousers for the freedom of shorts.

This proved to be good training for the future, because when I later went to a boarding school for my 6th form years, the boarders clothing list specified both vests and pyjamas, which didn't please me at al. However, I needn't have worried, as I found on my first night that everyone in my dormitory slept topless as a matter of course, some in PJ bottoms but most in boxers, while some brave spirits stripped off completely.

Alan - your 04.13 on 28/2/2024.

I think you are referring to 'Steampunk', not 'Steamphunk' which is something different.

There's nowt wrong with 'Steampunk', just people enjoying a 'different' lifestyle in a 'second life' (and spending a lot of money on it). At one time I looked askance at it - now my views have changed ... after all, what is wrong with 'tea duelling'?

https://www.ministryofsteampunk.com/

(I had similar views about 'Goths' once - my views possibly changed after I first saw the memorial to Sophie Lancaster, murdered because of her lifestyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster )

Fortunately over my life my views have changed on things.

I genuinely am not targeting anybody in this group, and I have no wish to offend, but I just do not understand why so many middle aged men want to see lads without their tops on, and what good does it do them if they are forced into it?. I just throw that in to the discussion for what it is worth, which is probably not a lot as I have no teenage offspring of my own. Discuss, as they say.

Comment by: Robert Coulson - Teacher 1967-2009 on 27th February 2024 at 23:27


Robert, there is a tiny branch of engineering (a bit like the Mill Hill extension of the Northern LIne on London Underground) called "Steamphunk". This is a rather rarified practice where Victorian engineering principles are attached to modern day devices. They are cumbersome and not really practical, but there you are, you have a group of men, who are devoted to the engineering solutions of the 1880s, more than a century later. I don't doubt the devotion of it's adherents, but it is an anachronism in 2024.

I give this example, because I see the old STTW regimented school gym in 2024 as analogous to the Steamphunk adherents. There is no practical need for it. I have said beyond repletion now, if lads wish of their own free will, to remove their tops, that is fine, let them do it. I totally believe what Bill said and I don';t doubt for a moment, and I agree with you, being sixth formers they were doing so of their own volition. Equally some of the lads he saw were wearing tops, and that, too should be a free choice. It is what makes you feel comfortable, and if you feel comfortable you will perform better.

There are two gyms in my area - one is one of those run-by-a-private-company-for-the-local-council outfits the other is a commercial concern, and for some reason all the fixed cycling machines and weight training ironmongery is besides the all glass frontage and can be seen by the public as they pass. I can honestly say that the number of men you see without a top is miniscule and the vast majority of the men choose toi wear tee shirts and sometimes even track suit tops (even I think that is overdressing a bit - I would be sweating like a pig). That, I think, tells you something. Most of those men are in I would say the 18-40 age bracket.


Bernard:

I think those lads looked smart, looked confident and looked competent, they were working hard and taking their work seriously. They were, after all GCSE students, so presumably the top of the tree in their class. It seems more relaxed and informal than a 1980s gym class, which itself looked like that stiff and starchy 1959 one which heads this page. Time marches on and we should march with it. With our tops on, if that makes us feel comfortable.

Comment by: Mickey Grant on 24th February 2024 at 21:41
Is it too much of a side-step to muse what guys wore as sleepwear in mid/late teens? I was always T/boxers and hadn't had PJs for years. At our sixth form induction residential I was surprised the variation - from proper PJs through to just PJ bottoms or boxers.

I guess I didn't voluntarily go shirtless often at all!




In my mid to late teens I slept in pyjama bottoms and a vest, nothing else. Later on in my early twenties I started sleeping in boxer shorts. I went through a naked sleep phase but then went back to boxers.


I know what you mean about the variation. You learn a lot about your friends and the truth about how modest or immodest they are if you go away with them and have to sleep over for a few nights in some dormitory like I did when school took us for a week away to Cumbria to study as part of our coursework in fifth form up to O levels.

I was in a dorm with something like 15 others and wore full pyjamas to bed on the trip each night, with my pants on underneath too. But the variety was amazing. You had a few like me, others wearing just pants or boxers and no tops, some wearing pants and t-shirts, one I remember wore full pyjamas and socks, and another pair I saw got out of bed in the morning stark naked. One of them was somebody I would never have expected to do that. The trip was quite telling about how comfortable people are in close proximity with each other about such things when they have total free choice to decide. I certainly don't remember hearing any comments about anyone's chosen night attire though.

Come the morning we all had the freedom to choose to shower or not before breakfast and remarkably everyone chose to do so without fuss automatically, we had been so conditioned from doing so in school PE I suppose that it came as second nature at the time.

Another light sleeper I'm afraid, reading in bed late into the night, and currently I am wearing navy blue night shorts almost to the knee and a white t-shirt, which will come off when the nights get warmer.

I don't remember that many times when I went shirtless voluntarily though either, other than under the bed covers at night.

Comment by: Seb on 27th February 2024 at 20:27
Simple really for the PE teacher. If you want your class to go shirtless then you do it too.



Yes, I think that is the simplest solution, and quite fair. But he's probably not even allowed to, while at the same time allowed to request/require it among class. Such is the unfairness of school at times. I suppose the sooner you learn in life that things can sometimes be unfair and uncomfortable and you can't have your own way, the better.

I really don't think that holding internal class ballots is a good idea at all, even if intended to be well meaning. It's not the answer, and that would be my advice to you Nathan, irrespective of the subject matter or question.

Where would it end? Another one for your shower requirement and then another and so on, other subjects could then want similar.

If such a vote was to take place among a PE year group in my time I would have expected an overwhelming majority to agree that a shirtless PE decision is acceptable. Even today, if Nathan was to take a vote across his PE year groups I would be quite surprised if he fell short of a majority to continue. Even nowadays more boys will quite like being shirtless if given a chance to be than actively dislike it. There are unconfident boys who fear such things and worry about it but I was always told to face my fears and overcome them if I could. I know from long experience in the first half of my career especially, that it works to do that. At the start of my working life in PE it was always considered to be shirtless while doing physical exercise was a healthy thing to do and gave vitality.

Also it can actually help the less confident boys to mix with others who are shirtless in PE and make them see we are all different but also at the same time all essentially much the same too.

Someone has said that taking PE in a bare chest is "old fashioned". Well many old fashioned ideas come back into fashion and this might be the case with this method of doing PE. I was interested to read Bill's recent comments about what he has seen regarding shirtless running coming from a school in his area. I'd suggest that was possibly a sixth form PE training lesson or similar and entirely voluntary by the way. We have a gentleman on here who has amassed a bare chest group running following, was it 'bareskins' or something similar, so clearly this style could be not just the past but the future, as well as being the present.

I think issues surrounding such a device as a school vote on going shirtless in school PE have been well identified tonight already. It is the job of a teacher to lead, and teach, not be lead and follow. Firm decision making wherever possible and not to hide behind mini school referendums to make decisions, even on this issue. Just asking the question simply promotes the idea that there might be something wrong with being seen stripped to the waist, even in the most obvious setting for doing so.

If there are severe individual cases of body dysmorphia then they can be addressed on a one on one basis. Few boys are actually that frightened to the point of scared to take their shirts off among others though.

The recent videos placed upon the site seemed completely normal to me and routine. Nobody would have batted an eyelid in 1980 or the other in 1983 at such things and few of those boys probably did, although one or two might have I will agree a little bit, but not most.

Comment by: Bernard on 27th February 2024 at 21:54
'They were encouraging and realised that boys varied considerably in their ability. As long as boys were trying that was good enough for them. They neither bullied nor tolerated bullying from boys. All in all they tried to make their classes enjoyable and generally succeeded. With that sort of attitude being required to be shirtless was, I'm sure, no more than a minor inconvenience even for the least confident of boys.'


I think you are describing Nathan here too from what I can make of what he says of himself. Most PE teachers are not ogre's even if they did pull the shirt off your back when you didn't like it.


Comment by: Neil on 27th February 2024 at 22:12
'That's the point of a democratic decision making process though isn't it. In such a situation those 5 theoretical boys shy to show their bare chested bodies would have to accept it and do so, carrying on. No problem really is it.'


I agree with this. You just have to accept things sometimes, more so if there's been a consensual vote and move on and deal with the situation.

Comment by: John on 27th February 2024 at 17:57
But how about if you got a decent majority in favour, say out of 30, it went 25 for and 5 against bare chests. You would then know you had 5 boys in that particular class that were not exactly comfy with it. How would you respond to that and would you try to find out who they were and have a word, or respect the secrecy of the ballot? But you'd still be aware you had 5 in that class who preferred the top.
So you even get a problem with your best case scenario. But I suppose if it's a democratic school decision like that and everyone agrees to accept the outcome beforehand then there can be no complaints thereafter.


That's the point of a democratic decision making process though isn't it. In such a situation those 5 theoretical boys shy to show their bare chested bodies would have to accept it and do so, carrying on. No problem really is it.

Actually I think Nathan is just playing about here and would never have any intention of doing so and is just thinking aloud for the sheer sake of it, although such a secret vote could be taken really quickly and effectively in many ways that does not involve slips of paper, pens and boxes.

Alan - I'm afraid I don't agree with your comment on the Bishop PE GCSE class - with so many variations in kit I think they look anything but tidy and smart.
Archie - I agree wholeheartedly - requiring boys to be shirtless would not "have been deemed an unreasonable demand in a school and should not be now..."
I admit it was during the 60s that I was at school doing all p.e. shirtless and barefoot. Times have changed but not always for the good. Our p.e. teachers were very different to some described on this site. They were encouraging and realised that boys varied considerably in their ability. As long as boys were trying that was good enough for them. They neither bullied nor tolerated bullying from boys. All in all they tried to make their classes enjoyable and generally succeeded. With that sort of attitude being required to be shirtless was, I'm sure, no more than a minor inconvenience even for the least confident of boys.

Simple really for the PE teacher. If you want your class to go shirtless then you do it too.

Some of my ex-PE teachers did with us long ago around 1987-89, both in the PE sports hall and outside during the summer athletics season during heatwaves.

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 26th February 2024 at 23:40



"I should have been in bed ten minutes ago. Up at 7am and will be doing Year 10 circuit training in the gym first off. Gym shirts will be off for that like they always are when we do it, bare chests. Why, because that way you can see what muscle areas are being used effectively for one. So that's one justification I can give. My PE head choice"

As a matter of interest, I looked up circuit training and I found several films on You Tube (Roberts never had stuff like that - he preferred ropes, balls , running football , that sort of stuff. This film is typical of many:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sujPRQ-qTZE


Bishop PE GCSE circuit training


In every one of the films the lads have shirts on. It just shows where there is a will there is a way!. As regards muscle development, as the pupils will be doing broadly similar routines, it can't be a revelation to know that some will develop "better" than others. Take me - I might have been a weedy little runt, but I had tremendous lung power. Trumpets and flugelhorns do not blow themselves.

On the subject of films, it is amazing how many 70s/80s films have come to light, but there is little or nothing from recent years. I think this example is the most recent I have seen - and they all look tidy and smart. And clothed.

A couple of points directed to Nathan.

I presume you as teacher do not remove whatever you wear up top for PE at any stage. I'll take that as a given. How about when you decide to take circuit training lessons or anything else with your class when you require them to go bare chested, YOU do too. Lead by example.

Among a number of things that I noticed about school in general it was how hypocritical a lot of teachers could often be, not just in PE but across the board.

PE teachers at mine, not just secondary but middle as well were always asking boys in PE to remove tops and never did this themselves. Much like the photo that goes with this chat.

On the ballot idea. Sounds good until you think about it deeper. What happens if the majority clearly, or even by just one decide against bare chests for circuit training? Would you listen? You seemed to suggest the actual decision on this was your immediate superior, the head of your department. What would he say if you started going freelance in such decisions?

But how about if you got a decent majority in favour, say out of 30, it went 25 for and 5 against bare chests. You would then know you had 5 boys in that particular class that were not exactly comfy with it. How would you respond to that and would you try to find out who they were and have a word, or respect the secrecy of the ballot? But you'd still be aware you had 5 in that class who preferred the top.

So you even get a problem with your best case scenario. But I suppose if it's a democratic school decision like that and everyone agrees to accept the outcome beforehand then there can be no complaints thereafter.

Nathan Hind, I think you are giving a reasonable account of yourself. I notice at the end of your comment you succumbed to the justification argument. What you are doing this morning would never have been deemed an unreasonable demand in a school and should not be now either but clearly is with some people.

Your point on a secret ballot is a good one. Shows of hands are often less accurate because people act on what they see others doing or not. Maybe you could ask the question - Are you comfortable taking part in PE when asked to without the top? Nice and generic. Or maybe get straight to the point - Bare chests in PE, yes or no? I agree an answer from a random class of 20 or 30 would be enlightening in this day and age. I wouldn't wish to presume the result that might come out of such a thing. I think many years ago it would be a clear majority giving a positive response unless they were all good actors.

As long as you don't discriminate on the issue then you have every right to ask the class to wear what you deem appropriate, such as this morning.

The past is a different country as they say and clearly we evolve and there are things I look back on now and would not wish to see today. The non PE example that Matthew gave on here from his school trip was in my opinion simply cruel and unkind and the action of a very poor teacher indeed who should have been ashamed of herself.

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 26th February 2024 at 23:46


Hi Nathan, a few comments, only:

"There was a mention of a school show of hands on PE in a bare chest and it came up the preferred option. Based on what I have read on here I think that would be a very good option where I work believe it or not. Infact I would go further and say a secret ballot would be far more effective to find out the real truth about what modern youngsters think about doing PE in this way. I would genuinely like to know the answer to such a question. Would anyone like to suggest the question that should actually be on the ballot paper then, and whether it should be a simple yes or no answer? "

I think this is an excellent, idea, . I would say the best question would be:

"Given the choice, would you prefer to exercise:

1: With a tee shirt
2: Without a tee shirt"

They can then write on the ballot paper 1 or 2. I would suggest they are allowed to take the card home, small enough so they can be put in the pocket in an envelope, so that "peer pressure" one way or the other cannot be applied.

The question then is would each boys wishes be respected. As I have said many times, those lads who wish to wear a top should be allowed to and those that don't can continue with the current practice.




"I think this thread has returned to a sensible level of discussion and so feel comfortable engaging with it again. I treat everyone with full respect. It was quite disappointing a few weeks ago when this discussion fell into personal abuse flying about. "

I received a great deal of personal abuse , not least from a man who claimed to be a barrister who made the most libelous comments about me. Any real barrister would, I think, have been very circumspect in making the allegations he did. This is the reason I asked the owner of this board to give IP addresses because so many of the insults were couched in much the same terms, even though they appeared to be from several sources. As I suspected these various individuals seem to have left us now. It also showed the notion that I was posting under multiple names was the fantasy it was. I agree the tone has been raised considerably this year.



".....I should have been in bed ten minutes ago. Up at 7am and will be doing Year 10 circuit training in the gym first off. Gym shirts will be off for that like they always are when we do it, bare chests. Why, because that way you can see what muscle areas are being used effectively for one. So that's one justification I can give. My PE head choice."

It must be very confusing for your lads not to know from one day to the next what the party line will be. Surely the human body does not change that frequently, between say 11-13 and 14-16 (or whatever age they are being forced to undergo this practice)?. Surely a tee shirt or singlet would allow this assessment to be conducted?. I take it the head of department is either an elderly man or has very old fashioned views. This current practice must be a bit demoralising for the less muscular or confident lads.

Comment by: Stephen on 26th February 2024 at 18:01
Nathan.
Do you have anyone in your classes at the moment that you are quietly observing and think may have any of the type of issues that have been placed on this thread by any chance?
My take on Nathan here is that he is trying to get an understanding of the issues in some way from those of us that have long ago been there and done it when they didn't like it much, especially about the whole showers and shirts off thing.
What's your view on the typical 1974 PE teacher I describe Nathan?



Stephen, to your first question, there are always going to be boys who have different levels of confidence, from the over confident to those who lack confidence and no class or school is any different in that regard. There is nobody I am "quietly observing" as you put it. I observe everybody. Believe it or not the idea of PE is to actually give pupils confidence to do things as well as remain active and therefore fit and healthy.

But just because someone might be unconfident does not mean they are unhappy.

Now in terms of the issues raised on this thread, the time to be most aware is with the new intakes in the first few weeks of the school year. I clearly remember asking many of mine after a couple of weeks last September if they were alright or had any questions or problems, they could come and see me or another colleague who takes them. I said as much on here. I've done that every year.

Regards the issues discussed on here, the choice or not surrounding doing PE in a bare chest, well I don't happen to think that going bare chests in PE causes that lack of confidence in itself, I think it already exists and that is just the way it manifests itself.

I read about Matthew K here being made to walk around a London attraction by his teacher in the 1970s with his top off because somebody spoiled his clothing. That was not right. Even I would have felt embarrassed and awkward about that and I am quite confident and didn't suffer a lack of it as a child and was happy to kick my clothing off where appropriate. That is a quite stupid teacher making the wrong call and sounded like she panicked into a foolish decision there.

I have shy boys in my classes. It doesn't mean they are shy about what they look like or show to others though. But I'm not stupid, I know that everyone has different limits and comfort zones. As far as the teachers of 1974 are concerned, well I would not be physically inappropriate with anyone, and there are rules in place and safeguards to be undertaken. Pushing and manhandling as described would not be acceptable nowadays and I think someone who pulls a pupil up and sticks him in a shower in his socks is just being a fool, although I understand the warped logic of it, but don't agree with that at all.

You are right Stephen, I have been trying to gain an understanding from older men by reading this forum, not something that was initially my intent at all.

There was a mention of a school show of hands on PE in a bare chest and it came up the preferred option. Based on what I have read on here I think that would be a very good option where I work believe it or not. Infact I would go further and say a secret ballot would be far more effective to find out the real truth about what modern youngsters think about doing PE in this way. I would genuinely like to know the answer to such a question. Would anyone like to suggest the question that should actually be on the ballot paper then, and whether it should be a simple yes or no answer? I have done PE psychology unlike many in this job in decades gone by.

I think this thread has returned to a sensible level of discussion and so feel comfortable engaging with it again. I treat everyone with full respect. It was quite disappointing a few weeks ago when this discussion fell into personal abuse flying about. For example I find people such as Alan quite interesting and those like him who feel so strongly on such matters are worth hearing from as well as those who are completely the opposite. I hope direct personal abuse has stopped. If I see it in my classes I consider it a serious matter to deal with and do so. If I'm honest, I am always most satisfied helping out the less confident pupils to overcome whatever holds them back if I can.

It's never too late to gain confidence, even for people on here.

I should have been in bed ten minutes ago. Up at 7am and will be doing Year 10 circuit training in the gym first off. Gym shirts will be off for that like they always are when we do it, bare chests. Why, because that way you can see what muscle areas are being used effectively for one. So that's one justification I can give. My PE head choice.

Comment by: Matthew K on 25th February 2024 at 22:08

I know you said it was 1976 and it must have been one of those really hot days that summer, but really, how deeply inappropriate that was even for the time. The male teacher had the correct response there. What a shame that all the boys in your class didn't come out in solidarity for you on that day, just your friend. He not only sounds super confident like you said, but super smart too. You can bet if they had done, and many might have actually liked to do so like your friend, that female teacher would have changed her tune smartish and sent you off with the other teacher to grab something to put on.

Alan mentioned phoning back home. It's easy to forget in this day and age how difficult that could have been. Find a phone box, get the right change, know the number etc etc.

I never cease to be amazed by the stories you can hear about schooldays.

Would anyone actually defend such a thing as Matthew described, or accepted that decision happily?

In such cases as this it makes me wonder if your teacher at the time Matthew would have been happy for her own young son to do likewise in that situation.

I find it quite interesting that some schools went the whole full on bare chest route for much of their PE, while others chose to be strict on tops in the form of vests or t-shirts. Why the difference between schools?

A school without any showering facilities after the age of 12 must have been a quite poor school and rare Chris.

Whatever your size, whatever you looked like, whatever you thought of it, when the PE teacher told you your shirt was coming off, it came off.

My own school went very much down the shirtless route. Teachers have to justify their school mainly to parents in my view.

What Stephen has asked Nathan on here is worth hearing the answer to if it comes. I think I agree with your take on him there.