Burnley Grammar School

Martin, thank you for commenting. Excuse my asking, but do you know if your private day school was once, decades back, a state grammar? I have heard of other examples of grammar schools converting to the private sector, to avoid becoming comprehensives.

Would you mind saying, very roughly, what part of the country your school is in? I gather standard practices varied in different regions, particularly in the past.

Thank you.

The lads in years 7 to 10 at my school are required to ALL go shirtless for PE once per week and everyone seems fine with a bare chest and no problems have been created by this. They must all shower properly together as required also, again absolutely no problems arise I'm pleased to say. The school is a private day school, not state. I've been there thirty five years on and off and it's always been the same.

Our kit was slightly different. Indoors in the gym, it was shorts only. In the sports hall it was shorts and trainers, half of us were in a house with white shorts, the other in blue so that sorted out teams for basketball etc without bins or sashes. Outdoors it was rugby shirt, shorts, boots. In the summer shorts, trainers. No issues from anyone. With CrossFit and other similar gyms, shirtless exercise seems to be making a comeback.

Stewart - I was at an all boys Grammar school at around the same time and our p.e. kit was exactly the same. It certainly made you want to keep moving when outside in the winter but it did no-one any harm.

Just looking at the latest comments about PE kit on here, I have posted this before, but it’s a long time ago, so let me reiterate that at my school in the late 1960s and early 1970s, our PE kit was a pair of shorts. Full stop. No shirt or shoes, indoors and outdoors, whatever the weather.

Greg 2 mentions unofficial punishments at his school - things like being slapped across the face, hit with a rubber tube.

While we were caned and given things like additional punishment runs (it was a boarding school), I can only recall unofficial punishments in the gym. There were obvious things like press ups, but the one I hated most was being made to hang from the wall bars (back to wall, hold on my hands above your head, feet free) - it was probably only for a minute or two, but it seemed ages, and hurt like hell.

Did anyone else have to do this ?

Stuart on 1st October 2024 at 16:36/liam on 30th September 2024 at 09:27

I was never hit with a cane all through my time school, though I think I did receive my fair share of the traditional corporal punishment of those times. I did receive the 'slipper' once, together with a few other boys all lined up after being told to touch our toes. It was a large size plimsoll that was used, wielded by our gym teacher, and he waited until we’d all changed, obviously for it to have maximum effect; I do remember once being hit across the hand with a bunsen burner tube, by a sadistic male teacher; another time a volatile female teacher hitting my hand with six rulers lined up together so that all their edges made contact with your palm. One other time I remember being slapped across the face for biting an apple at the back of an English classroom, before slipping it back into my blazer pocket, but it had been noticed by our disgruntled English teacher. I agree it wasn't a sensible thing to try, but I think I just caught him, or he caught me, while in a particularly bad mood that day. This was all in the 1970s, when it seems slightly mad people were permitted to ’teach’ kids.

I don’t think I knew anything about circumcision, and never witnessed it. What is odd is that a Jewish boy joined my school and year one time. Though he wasn’t in my form, several boys’ forms did get together once a week for games. Strangely, I don’t remember anything unusual about him either. I only recall this because I do remember him being discussed by others who were in the know about such things, one of whom I wasn’t, obviously.

Comment by: Stuart on 1st October 2024 at 16:36


When you read things like this, it makes you realise how perverted and unsuitable for the teaching profession these "men" were. These days they would be in court and then quite probably in prison.

Having had a school history involving compulsory shirtless PE, shirtless cross country etc (plus sleeping in dorms), I can only ever remember one topic being discussed when undressed/naked and that was the latest set of cane welts boys had, how many stokes it involved and given by which teacher !

In Response to Chris G. I presume the reference to Cavaliers and Roundheads was a pseudonym for circumcised and uncircumcised. as afr as I recall this was never discussed when in the changing room at school or at scout camp when we got undressed for bed.
In fact naïve as it seems I was not aware that I had been circumcised, until a school medical when I must have been about 15/16 when after stripping to the waist the doctor abruptly said "drop your trousers and pants" what was worse there was a female nurse standing right in front of me. Then the doctor asked me when and why I had been circumcised. My reply to those two questions were I do not know.
I was too embarrassed to ask my father when I got home and to this day I do not know the answer to those questions.
I must admit next time as a class we were changing for pe I did take a peek and I noticed that most boys had more skin where I do not.

Mickey, I do have a memory on a not dissimilar subject.

I remember the pang of self-consciousness one day as a ten-year-old, changing for PE in the classroom with the other children. I had taken off my shirt and vest when a girl - out of innocent curiosity - pointed at the operation scar on my belly and said, "What's that?"

I could make no reply.

At infant school, around my sixth birthday, I had glanced at another boy in PE, and realised it was not a universal part of human anatomy.

I don't remember belly-buttons ever being a topic of conversation, despite seeing numerous examples in topless PE, swimming pool, changing room, school dormitory situations. My contemporaries seemed more concerned with the differences between Cavaliers and Roundheads

In response to Mickey’s question belly buttons were not something we ever took notice of either whilst doing shirtless PE or during swimming lessons. I cannot recall anyone ever commenting on someone’s belly button.

It's only tangentially related to some conversations here, but would anyone object to me returning to the topic of belly buttons?

Specifically, if you did topless sport at school would another lad having an outie be something you might notice? Or even comment on?

Comment by: Mr Dando on 23rd August 2024 at 18:27

Phillipson is completely ineffectual, in that, like all her colleagues, she has no "plan", except to uphold the status quo, which is what the toolmakers son wants - anyone stepping out of line in his cabinet will find themselves on the back benches.

I think MOST schools allow boys to wear tops these days - and as I have said very often in these pages, if a lad chooses so to do, he should be allowed to, in the same way as if a boy wishes to remove his top that is allowable too. I think that this courtesy should be extended to ALL schools regardless of status, however much it upsets the Colonel Blimps, who still patrol the locker rooms with their dreams of National Service and retirement.

The shower situation is more problematic. I preferred to shower, as I didn't like feeling stale all day, but in an ideal world, there would be individual shower cubicles - given the state of the national finances, this won;t happen, but teachers should definitely not be allowed to watch the act of showering.

I honestly don't think this government will change anything, and it remains to see if Starmer can stagger through five years

Case noted Alan there is no point Labour introducing a crime of "extreme misogyny" unless it is prepared to end extreme Mysandry against male pupils.

There is also no reason for a Ministry for women unless you are going to have a Ministry for men.

https://www.castlehill.stockport.sch.uk/Information/Uniforms/

The following are required for PE:

T-shirt, shorts or jogging bottoms & trainers (any colour)
PE classes take place both indoors and outdoors and therefore students should bring clothing as appropriate for weather conditions. Students are required to shower after PE and should bring a towel. On Wednesdays, at certain times of the year, Year 7 students will need to bring a swimming kit for swimming lessons.

Bridget Phillipson I give you until 1 September 2024 to end School showers and topless swimming for all male pupils.

If Labour fails the working class over the next 5 years they will end up like the tories and cast into electoral oblivion.

Reported Muhammad Jahsh, "The Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, passed by Ma'mar while his thighs were uncovered. He said, to him, 'O Ma'mar, cover your thighs, for they are (part of the) 'aurah." This is related by Ahmad, al-Hakim and al-Bukhari in Tareekh and in mu'allaq form in his Sahih.

Comment by: Mr Dando on 21st August 2024 at 18:28


While I agree with you about the brutality that seemed to pertain grammar schools in the past (I know little of what goes on in the remaining few), I can't agree with you about the warning letter sent to parents that Woodgate sent. I know nothing about this establishment, any more than any other, they are at least given the opportunity of allowing their pupils the chance to avoid the changing room, if they are shy or nervous. The only thing I found odd in their letter is that some of the gear the children are wearing is "too revealing". Without wishing to be crude what can a primary age child possibly "reveal"?.

All the schools you cite seem to allow all male pupils to wear shirts. The shower situation is one that is problematic. I preferred to feel clean for the rest of the day, so I used them, though I very much resented that our teacher was allowed to stand and watch us.

I think you are being very optimistic if you think the current Labour party is going to be very much different to any other government - Starmer is very much the establishment man ("Mr. Rules" as he once described himself), and is clearly very autocratic. It might be argued that he is the best leader the Conservatives never had. Beyond dragging us all into bankruptcy due to the mad "net zero" policy (which they will never fulfill by 2030, and probably won't be able to do for years) - also given the fact the U.K. is responsible for only 1% of the world total of emissions, I doubt this government will change anything much (unless you are a train driver or NHS employee). The current Education Minister seems more interested in promoting left wing ideology around feminism than anything else.

It is truly terrfiying to hear the brutality that is meted out in School boarding schools. There is no place for bare chested PE in a civilised society and we must ensure that all schools ban compulsory showers and eliminate nudity in both pùblic and private schools.

Now we have a change of Government we must makre sure that Keir Starmer keeps to his plan of introducing 20% VAT for all private schools so that we can end White male privilege and make sure communal showers in boarding schools are consigned to the dustbin of history.

It is sad to hear of anybody being intimidated from using this public forum but just as it was wrong in the 1980s to defend corporal punishment so in the 2020´s it is wrong to support compulsory showers and dividing school boys into "Shirts versus Skins".

We must use this new Labour Government to bring forward a progressive revolution so that Transgender and Muslim pupils are fully protected.
No Longer should boys have to wear compulsory football boots when it is not required of girls. No Longer should boys have to wear ties when it is nor mandated for girls.

No longer should boys be denied Tracksuit bottoms, Leggings and one piece swimming suits when it is allowed for girls.

We must end the barbaric practice of schools forcing to pupils to change in communal rooms and maintain the post covid policy of allowing students to come to schools in a modest PE kit.

https://www.woodgateprimary.co.uk/news/detail/important-information-about-pe-kits/ "Please support us and make sure that your child has the correct P.E. kit or comes to school in their normal uniform every day and gets changed before the P.E. lesson.

"If children continue to come into school in inappropriate clothing for P.E. we will stop the system and go back to all children having to change in school before the lesson. "

Colleagues this is not acceptable and I just want a better world for all school children without discrimination on the grounds of gender, transgender, religious belief or political creed.

If you doubt my sincerity please take a look at this school which discriminates on the grounds of sex.

https://www.frederickbird.coventry.sch.uk/parents/school-uniform/sports-kit/

GIRLS SWIMMING KIT

One piece swimming costume
In addition, if necessary, girls can wear tight fitting footless tights underneath the swimming costume.
Girls’ swimming costumes should not have a skirt attached as this restricts movement and makes learning to swim much more difficult.
Headscarves should not be worn, however should you wish to cover the head, girls should wear a latex swimming cap.

BOYS SWIMMING KIT

Swimming trunks or shorts must be worn.
Boys cannot wear t-shirts.

If shorts are chosen they must be proper swimming shorts and not normal football/PE shorts. Shorts must be above the knee in length and have no buttons or zips on them. If they are too long, it will restrict movement and make learning to swim much more difficult.

No boy should be forced to swim topless and must be allowed to cover their upper torso and cover their hair.

I believe by forcing boys to swim topless or by dividing school sports team into skins versus shirts we creating the English Defence League/ Reform UK thug of tomorrow. You only have to look at the riots in Rotherham to see what atrocities we have inflicted on the white working class youth of today.

https://www.kingdavidliverpool.co.uk/Information/Uniform/

PE UNIFORM

The following are the only items which may be worn:

For all pupils:

Navy/Sky Blue Shorts
Navy/Sky Blue Skort (optional alternative to shorts for girls)
Navy/Sky Blue Polo Shirt – with badge (Straight for boys / Tapered for girls)
Navy/Sky Blue Hoodie (optional)
Navy/Sky Blue Football socks
Navy Blue fitness leggings (optional alternative to shorts/skort for girls)
Football boots (optional for girls)
Trainers (no Converse or pumps allowed)
Towel
Full swimming costume / trunks (briefs/jammers/long swimming trunks not leisure shorts – all should be fitted with no pockets)

No boy should be forced to swim in a skimpy pair of swimming trunks. We must have leggings, rash vests and hair covers regardless of gender.

Furthermore we must ban all so called "Voluntary" catholic academies and end the dreaded practice of Papal showers in our schools.

https://www.stphiliphowardglossop.srscmat.co.uk/information/dress-code-and-equipment/#1650982764984-8eef839e-ebac

P.E. KIT – The Essentials
Black or white approved Polo shirt with school crest.
Plain black PE shorts.
Trainers or plimsolls.
Black socks.
Optional approved sweatshirt with school crest.
P.E. Kit – Additional
A plain black track-suit where P.E. staff say it is appropriate for winter – no logos or designer outfits.
Ties, jumper with school crest and all items of P.E. kit can be purchased from school.

A current price list is included.

Physical Education is a National Curriculum subject and all students are required to participate in the course

All students are required to shower unless there is a confirmed medical reason for not doing so.

I am convinced we now need an islamic system of modesty in our school to end these myandrist practices and allow all pupils to wear tracksuits for both inside and outside sports, regardless of whether it is winter time.

It is haram to wear garments of fame and vanity, which means a garment that stands out from others so that people will look at the wearer and he will become known for it.

Ibn ‘Umar said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever wears a garment of fame and vanity, Allah will dress him in a garment like it on the Day of Resurrection.”

According to another version, “…then set it ablaze.” And according to a third version, “will dress him in a garment of humiliation.” (Narrated by Abu Dawud, 4029; Ibn Majah, 3606 and 3607; classed as hasan by Shaykh al-Albani in Sahih al-Targhib, 2089)

The brother may also refer to the section on Dress in this website, where there is more information.

And Allah knows best.

Thanks for your comments James

When I started, I was like all boys at the time, nervous, afraid, and open to any wind up around, especially boys with older brothers at the school who knew "everything" !

Within a few day, a classmate got a gym detention. We all did early morning (shirtless) runs, and had been warned along the lines of "behave or you get the cane" Rapidly rumours spread - ever boy gets caned in a gym detention, minimum 12 strokes, they have to strip naked for the workout and to be caned, they have to run in only shorts and so on.

Everyone including the boy being punished believed every word - naturally !!

Steve, My boarding school took pretty much the same approach but the duration of the morning run increased by 10 mins each year until you were 13 then you stepped up to a 5 mile run around the playing field. Our PE teachers also had us barechested outdoors for one double lesson a week up to 13 then it increased to two again irrespective of the weather. We also did cross-country. Remedial PE was always outdoors and always barechested it was a very regular feature after lessons finished. You could see it taking place from the dorm windows which for our house looked out over the fields. No cane or slipper you'd get a certain number of remedial sessions instead. Indoors PE was the same barechests until you left.

Comment by: Mickey on 4th August 2024 at 22:41


Be careful for what you wish for. It is so very easy to say something like that )it often gets a cheap round of applause on Any Questions), but if you keep building you also have to supply infrastructure, which is something most local authorities forget to do, hence a paucity of doctor and dentist surgeries - and - yes schools. as well.

Overpopulation is the curse of this country, and you can't get a quart into a pint pot. Perhaps that is a subject that schools should get over to -pupils.

Not that long ago, high rise blocks of flats and overdevelopment were considered the future - look at the decaying mess we have round us today, especially in London and other big cities.

Alan said
However you enjoy the countryside, enjoy it while you can, as the new government seems determined to cover the country in concrete

And not a moment too soon. Hopefully then people will have somewhere to live!

Comment by: Mickey on 27th July 2024 at 08:23


"Craig. I've just got back from a morning run in the countryside. And I took your advice and tucked my shirt into my shorts. Not sure whether I'll do it again, though it wasn't unpleasant."

Craig, Ifit were me, I would only do what you are comfortable doing. As an adult you don't "have to" do anything at all that makes you feel uncomfortable. If only school students were given the same courtesy.

However you enjoy the countryside, enjoy it while you can, as the new government seems determined to cover the country in concrete, by the simple expedient of making the greenbelt the "greybelt"

Mickey, Bernard et al
Out by the river yesterday afternoon, the usual crop of runners, almost all minus shirts.. A small minority of the males had "safety shirts" but I don't think any of the females did.

Craig. I've just got back from a morning run in the countryside. And I took your advice and tucked my shirt into my shorts. Not sure whether I'll do it again, though it wasn't unpleasant.

I still think having an outie (or, I suppose, being shy of it) is a valid excuse!

Alan - in fact that was the first time I have ever posted a link to anything on this or any other site - it has taken a while to work out how to include a link. Still - you wouldn't want to let the truth stop you attacking another contributor!

I went to boarding school from aged 9 on, as my father works overseas - it was just as it was.

By the standards of the 1960's, it was "normal" in terms of discipline - yes boys got caned, but usually it was the slipper/plimsolls, or a punishment gym type session. Especially once you got to 13 or beyond, a caning was designed to hurt and leave clear marks for other boys to see (in showers/dorms) for several days after.

All boys did a morning run, all year around. At 9/10 it was a couple of laps of the playing fields (so 10 mins or less), and it moved upwards each year, so that by 13/14 you did a "proper" 3 or 4 mile run. Every boy had to strip to the waist, no matter how cold it was. We did indoor pe in only shorts, but that was common I think.

There was no regime of set times for the run, or boys being punished for being last, but you were expected to "do your best/not be slow/lazy", and cold showers or repeat runs were used. I also recall a boy being caned for wearing a rugby shirt one freezing morning - but that was more for stupidity really, as he kind of stood out with dozens of other skinny bare chested boys ! We had to wear "normal" pj's for bed, and looking back that made no sense, as inside it was top & bottom of your pj's, and outside it was thin shorts only.

Comment by: Bernard on 21st July 2024 at 21:08


We can always rely on you, Bernard, to trawl the internet looking for pictures of that sort.

Alan - I knew I could rely on you for a negative comment! I linked the word "ideal" to the term "boy's gym kit" not academic subjects.
It can get very warm and humid in Hong Kong and there would not have been such luxuries as air conditioning in those days. My take on the clips would be that the school was taking its duty of care seriously. Boys who are comfortable are better able to concentrate on their studies.

Bernard 17th July 2102

Can't quite see what Hong Kong 55 years ago (minimum) has to do with British schools. Nothing "ideal" about that mode of dress for academic subjects - except to a very strange minority.