Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Seb on 27th February 2024 at 20:27
Simple really for the PE teacher. If you want your class to go shirtless then you do it too.



Yes, I think that is the simplest solution, and quite fair. But he's probably not even allowed to, while at the same time allowed to request/require it among class. Such is the unfairness of school at times. I suppose the sooner you learn in life that things can sometimes be unfair and uncomfortable and you can't have your own way, the better.

I really don't think that holding internal class ballots is a good idea at all, even if intended to be well meaning. It's not the answer, and that would be my advice to you Nathan, irrespective of the subject matter or question.

Where would it end? Another one for your shower requirement and then another and so on, other subjects could then want similar.

If such a vote was to take place among a PE year group in my time I would have expected an overwhelming majority to agree that a shirtless PE decision is acceptable. Even today, if Nathan was to take a vote across his PE year groups I would be quite surprised if he fell short of a majority to continue. Even nowadays more boys will quite like being shirtless if given a chance to be than actively dislike it. There are unconfident boys who fear such things and worry about it but I was always told to face my fears and overcome them if I could. I know from long experience in the first half of my career especially, that it works to do that. At the start of my working life in PE it was always considered to be shirtless while doing physical exercise was a healthy thing to do and gave vitality.

Also it can actually help the less confident boys to mix with others who are shirtless in PE and make them see we are all different but also at the same time all essentially much the same too.

Someone has said that taking PE in a bare chest is "old fashioned". Well many old fashioned ideas come back into fashion and this might be the case with this method of doing PE. I was interested to read Bill's recent comments about what he has seen regarding shirtless running coming from a school in his area. I'd suggest that was possibly a sixth form PE training lesson or similar and entirely voluntary by the way. We have a gentleman on here who has amassed a bare chest group running following, was it 'bareskins' or something similar, so clearly this style could be not just the past but the future, as well as being the present.

I think issues surrounding such a device as a school vote on going shirtless in school PE have been well identified tonight already. It is the job of a teacher to lead, and teach, not be lead and follow. Firm decision making wherever possible and not to hide behind mini school referendums to make decisions, even on this issue. Just asking the question simply promotes the idea that there might be something wrong with being seen stripped to the waist, even in the most obvious setting for doing so.

If there are severe individual cases of body dysmorphia then they can be addressed on a one on one basis. Few boys are actually that frightened to the point of scared to take their shirts off among others though.

The recent videos placed upon the site seemed completely normal to me and routine. Nobody would have batted an eyelid in 1980 or the other in 1983 at such things and few of those boys probably did, although one or two might have I will agree a little bit, but not most.

Comment by: Bernard on 27th February 2024 at 21:54
'They were encouraging and realised that boys varied considerably in their ability. As long as boys were trying that was good enough for them. They neither bullied nor tolerated bullying from boys. All in all they tried to make their classes enjoyable and generally succeeded. With that sort of attitude being required to be shirtless was, I'm sure, no more than a minor inconvenience even for the least confident of boys.'


I think you are describing Nathan here too from what I can make of what he says of himself. Most PE teachers are not ogre's even if they did pull the shirt off your back when you didn't like it.


Comment by: Neil on 27th February 2024 at 22:12
'That's the point of a democratic decision making process though isn't it. In such a situation those 5 theoretical boys shy to show their bare chested bodies would have to accept it and do so, carrying on. No problem really is it.'


I agree with this. You just have to accept things sometimes, more so if there's been a consensual vote and move on and deal with the situation.

Comment by: John on 27th February 2024 at 17:57
But how about if you got a decent majority in favour, say out of 30, it went 25 for and 5 against bare chests. You would then know you had 5 boys in that particular class that were not exactly comfy with it. How would you respond to that and would you try to find out who they were and have a word, or respect the secrecy of the ballot? But you'd still be aware you had 5 in that class who preferred the top.
So you even get a problem with your best case scenario. But I suppose if it's a democratic school decision like that and everyone agrees to accept the outcome beforehand then there can be no complaints thereafter.


That's the point of a democratic decision making process though isn't it. In such a situation those 5 theoretical boys shy to show their bare chested bodies would have to accept it and do so, carrying on. No problem really is it.

Actually I think Nathan is just playing about here and would never have any intention of doing so and is just thinking aloud for the sheer sake of it, although such a secret vote could be taken really quickly and effectively in many ways that does not involve slips of paper, pens and boxes.

Alan - I'm afraid I don't agree with your comment on the Bishop PE GCSE class - with so many variations in kit I think they look anything but tidy and smart.
Archie - I agree wholeheartedly - requiring boys to be shirtless would not "have been deemed an unreasonable demand in a school and should not be now..."
I admit it was during the 60s that I was at school doing all p.e. shirtless and barefoot. Times have changed but not always for the good. Our p.e. teachers were very different to some described on this site. They were encouraging and realised that boys varied considerably in their ability. As long as boys were trying that was good enough for them. They neither bullied nor tolerated bullying from boys. All in all they tried to make their classes enjoyable and generally succeeded. With that sort of attitude being required to be shirtless was, I'm sure, no more than a minor inconvenience even for the least confident of boys.

Simple really for the PE teacher. If you want your class to go shirtless then you do it too.

Some of my ex-PE teachers did with us long ago around 1987-89, both in the PE sports hall and outside during the summer athletics season during heatwaves.

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 26th February 2024 at 23:40



"I should have been in bed ten minutes ago. Up at 7am and will be doing Year 10 circuit training in the gym first off. Gym shirts will be off for that like they always are when we do it, bare chests. Why, because that way you can see what muscle areas are being used effectively for one. So that's one justification I can give. My PE head choice"

As a matter of interest, I looked up circuit training and I found several films on You Tube (Roberts never had stuff like that - he preferred ropes, balls , running football , that sort of stuff. This film is typical of many:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sujPRQ-qTZE


Bishop PE GCSE circuit training


In every one of the films the lads have shirts on. It just shows where there is a will there is a way!. As regards muscle development, as the pupils will be doing broadly similar routines, it can't be a revelation to know that some will develop "better" than others. Take me - I might have been a weedy little runt, but I had tremendous lung power. Trumpets and flugelhorns do not blow themselves.

On the subject of films, it is amazing how many 70s/80s films have come to light, but there is little or nothing from recent years. I think this example is the most recent I have seen - and they all look tidy and smart. And clothed.

A couple of points directed to Nathan.

I presume you as teacher do not remove whatever you wear up top for PE at any stage. I'll take that as a given. How about when you decide to take circuit training lessons or anything else with your class when you require them to go bare chested, YOU do too. Lead by example.

Among a number of things that I noticed about school in general it was how hypocritical a lot of teachers could often be, not just in PE but across the board.

PE teachers at mine, not just secondary but middle as well were always asking boys in PE to remove tops and never did this themselves. Much like the photo that goes with this chat.

On the ballot idea. Sounds good until you think about it deeper. What happens if the majority clearly, or even by just one decide against bare chests for circuit training? Would you listen? You seemed to suggest the actual decision on this was your immediate superior, the head of your department. What would he say if you started going freelance in such decisions?

But how about if you got a decent majority in favour, say out of 30, it went 25 for and 5 against bare chests. You would then know you had 5 boys in that particular class that were not exactly comfy with it. How would you respond to that and would you try to find out who they were and have a word, or respect the secrecy of the ballot? But you'd still be aware you had 5 in that class who preferred the top.

So you even get a problem with your best case scenario. But I suppose if it's a democratic school decision like that and everyone agrees to accept the outcome beforehand then there can be no complaints thereafter.

Nathan Hind, I think you are giving a reasonable account of yourself. I notice at the end of your comment you succumbed to the justification argument. What you are doing this morning would never have been deemed an unreasonable demand in a school and should not be now either but clearly is with some people.

Your point on a secret ballot is a good one. Shows of hands are often less accurate because people act on what they see others doing or not. Maybe you could ask the question - Are you comfortable taking part in PE when asked to without the top? Nice and generic. Or maybe get straight to the point - Bare chests in PE, yes or no? I agree an answer from a random class of 20 or 30 would be enlightening in this day and age. I wouldn't wish to presume the result that might come out of such a thing. I think many years ago it would be a clear majority giving a positive response unless they were all good actors.

As long as you don't discriminate on the issue then you have every right to ask the class to wear what you deem appropriate, such as this morning.

The past is a different country as they say and clearly we evolve and there are things I look back on now and would not wish to see today. The non PE example that Matthew gave on here from his school trip was in my opinion simply cruel and unkind and the action of a very poor teacher indeed who should have been ashamed of herself.

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 26th February 2024 at 23:46


Hi Nathan, a few comments, only:

"There was a mention of a school show of hands on PE in a bare chest and it came up the preferred option. Based on what I have read on here I think that would be a very good option where I work believe it or not. Infact I would go further and say a secret ballot would be far more effective to find out the real truth about what modern youngsters think about doing PE in this way. I would genuinely like to know the answer to such a question. Would anyone like to suggest the question that should actually be on the ballot paper then, and whether it should be a simple yes or no answer? "

I think this is an excellent, idea, . I would say the best question would be:

"Given the choice, would you prefer to exercise:

1: With a tee shirt
2: Without a tee shirt"

They can then write on the ballot paper 1 or 2. I would suggest they are allowed to take the card home, small enough so they can be put in the pocket in an envelope, so that "peer pressure" one way or the other cannot be applied.

The question then is would each boys wishes be respected. As I have said many times, those lads who wish to wear a top should be allowed to and those that don't can continue with the current practice.




"I think this thread has returned to a sensible level of discussion and so feel comfortable engaging with it again. I treat everyone with full respect. It was quite disappointing a few weeks ago when this discussion fell into personal abuse flying about. "

I received a great deal of personal abuse , not least from a man who claimed to be a barrister who made the most libelous comments about me. Any real barrister would, I think, have been very circumspect in making the allegations he did. This is the reason I asked the owner of this board to give IP addresses because so many of the insults were couched in much the same terms, even though they appeared to be from several sources. As I suspected these various individuals seem to have left us now. It also showed the notion that I was posting under multiple names was the fantasy it was. I agree the tone has been raised considerably this year.



".....I should have been in bed ten minutes ago. Up at 7am and will be doing Year 10 circuit training in the gym first off. Gym shirts will be off for that like they always are when we do it, bare chests. Why, because that way you can see what muscle areas are being used effectively for one. So that's one justification I can give. My PE head choice."

It must be very confusing for your lads not to know from one day to the next what the party line will be. Surely the human body does not change that frequently, between say 11-13 and 14-16 (or whatever age they are being forced to undergo this practice)?. Surely a tee shirt or singlet would allow this assessment to be conducted?. I take it the head of department is either an elderly man or has very old fashioned views. This current practice must be a bit demoralising for the less muscular or confident lads.

Comment by: Stephen on 26th February 2024 at 18:01
Nathan.
Do you have anyone in your classes at the moment that you are quietly observing and think may have any of the type of issues that have been placed on this thread by any chance?
My take on Nathan here is that he is trying to get an understanding of the issues in some way from those of us that have long ago been there and done it when they didn't like it much, especially about the whole showers and shirts off thing.
What's your view on the typical 1974 PE teacher I describe Nathan?



Stephen, to your first question, there are always going to be boys who have different levels of confidence, from the over confident to those who lack confidence and no class or school is any different in that regard. There is nobody I am "quietly observing" as you put it. I observe everybody. Believe it or not the idea of PE is to actually give pupils confidence to do things as well as remain active and therefore fit and healthy.

But just because someone might be unconfident does not mean they are unhappy.

Now in terms of the issues raised on this thread, the time to be most aware is with the new intakes in the first few weeks of the school year. I clearly remember asking many of mine after a couple of weeks last September if they were alright or had any questions or problems, they could come and see me or another colleague who takes them. I said as much on here. I've done that every year.

Regards the issues discussed on here, the choice or not surrounding doing PE in a bare chest, well I don't happen to think that going bare chests in PE causes that lack of confidence in itself, I think it already exists and that is just the way it manifests itself.

I read about Matthew K here being made to walk around a London attraction by his teacher in the 1970s with his top off because somebody spoiled his clothing. That was not right. Even I would have felt embarrassed and awkward about that and I am quite confident and didn't suffer a lack of it as a child and was happy to kick my clothing off where appropriate. That is a quite stupid teacher making the wrong call and sounded like she panicked into a foolish decision there.

I have shy boys in my classes. It doesn't mean they are shy about what they look like or show to others though. But I'm not stupid, I know that everyone has different limits and comfort zones. As far as the teachers of 1974 are concerned, well I would not be physically inappropriate with anyone, and there are rules in place and safeguards to be undertaken. Pushing and manhandling as described would not be acceptable nowadays and I think someone who pulls a pupil up and sticks him in a shower in his socks is just being a fool, although I understand the warped logic of it, but don't agree with that at all.

You are right Stephen, I have been trying to gain an understanding from older men by reading this forum, not something that was initially my intent at all.

There was a mention of a school show of hands on PE in a bare chest and it came up the preferred option. Based on what I have read on here I think that would be a very good option where I work believe it or not. Infact I would go further and say a secret ballot would be far more effective to find out the real truth about what modern youngsters think about doing PE in this way. I would genuinely like to know the answer to such a question. Would anyone like to suggest the question that should actually be on the ballot paper then, and whether it should be a simple yes or no answer? I have done PE psychology unlike many in this job in decades gone by.

I think this thread has returned to a sensible level of discussion and so feel comfortable engaging with it again. I treat everyone with full respect. It was quite disappointing a few weeks ago when this discussion fell into personal abuse flying about. For example I find people such as Alan quite interesting and those like him who feel so strongly on such matters are worth hearing from as well as those who are completely the opposite. I hope direct personal abuse has stopped. If I see it in my classes I consider it a serious matter to deal with and do so. If I'm honest, I am always most satisfied helping out the less confident pupils to overcome whatever holds them back if I can.

It's never too late to gain confidence, even for people on here.

I should have been in bed ten minutes ago. Up at 7am and will be doing Year 10 circuit training in the gym first off. Gym shirts will be off for that like they always are when we do it, bare chests. Why, because that way you can see what muscle areas are being used effectively for one. So that's one justification I can give. My PE head choice.

Comment by: Matthew K on 25th February 2024 at 22:08

I know you said it was 1976 and it must have been one of those really hot days that summer, but really, how deeply inappropriate that was even for the time. The male teacher had the correct response there. What a shame that all the boys in your class didn't come out in solidarity for you on that day, just your friend. He not only sounds super confident like you said, but super smart too. You can bet if they had done, and many might have actually liked to do so like your friend, that female teacher would have changed her tune smartish and sent you off with the other teacher to grab something to put on.

Alan mentioned phoning back home. It's easy to forget in this day and age how difficult that could have been. Find a phone box, get the right change, know the number etc etc.

I never cease to be amazed by the stories you can hear about schooldays.

Would anyone actually defend such a thing as Matthew described, or accepted that decision happily?

In such cases as this it makes me wonder if your teacher at the time Matthew would have been happy for her own young son to do likewise in that situation.

I find it quite interesting that some schools went the whole full on bare chest route for much of their PE, while others chose to be strict on tops in the form of vests or t-shirts. Why the difference between schools?

A school without any showering facilities after the age of 12 must have been a quite poor school and rare Chris.

Whatever your size, whatever you looked like, whatever you thought of it, when the PE teacher told you your shirt was coming off, it came off.

My own school went very much down the shirtless route. Teachers have to justify their school mainly to parents in my view.

What Stephen has asked Nathan on here is worth hearing the answer to if it comes. I think I agree with your take on him there.

Comment by Alan

"Of course, you are right if you held a vote in your school about that schools practices I guess all the lads would be reluctant to put their hands up, but why have an unnecessary system in the first place?"

When topless PE was introduced at my secondary school (when I was about 12), our PE teacher did actually ask for a show of hands on the subject, and got virtually unanimous support for the proposal. As we had no shower facilities, there was no issue of enforced nudity.
Come VO (vests off) day at the start of the Autumn term, there were a few grumbles about the gym being a bit chilly, but no voices of real dissent, and as I've described elsewhere, by half term, pretty well everyone in my class, me included, had stopped wearing underwear vests altogether. Looking back, I am sure that this topless PE experience, which sadly only lasted for three years, as I then moved to a school where t-shirts were mandatory PE wear, conditioned me to be much more confident in removing my shirt outdoors in hot weather.

Nathan.

Do you have anyone in your classes at the moment that you are quietly observing and think may have any of the type of issues that have been placed on this thread by any chance?

My take on Nathan here is that he is trying to get an understanding of the issues in some way from those of us that have long ago been there and done it when they didn't like it much, especially about the whole showers and shirts off thing.

I had no such problems myself but saw them in others for sure.


Fifty years ago I do remember some boys used to complain about PE, but not to teachers but with each other, such as being freezing in the gym or the shower reluctance that some had obviously got. I do remember comments about a couple of teachers who watched us while we showered like hawks and I mentioned some time ago on here how one of them actually timed our showers in school to be about two and half minutes duration on his stopwatch and you went in and didn't come out until the time was up even if the water began running colder, which it was prone to do sometimes.

The culture of that time was often cool showers, sometimes almost cold, chilly gymnasiums, overbearing teachers and doing as you were told and doing it quickly. We had one PE teacher who literally pushed boys in the back into our school shower if they were too slow. I can remember one boy who was too slow and looked reluctant once actually getting pulled up by his arm and hurried off to shower and sent in naked but with his football socks still on his feet the teacher was so impatient.

What's your view on the typical 1974 PE teacher I describe Nathan?

Comment by: David on 25th February 2024 at 23:02

I have to admit that what I know about cricket could be written on the back of a postage stamp with a telegraph pole, but I cannot understand the praise for what Nathan wrote. He offered no explanation as to why his school still uses such outdated methods, and seems to duck the question by saying how can we act if we don't know there is a problem, and admits that if there was a discussion, it is unlikely any boy would object or admit there WAS a problem. How little even teachers today know about child psychology. Of course no boy would admit to unease, because at that age we all think we are alone with our unspoken fears. It is only as adults we are prepared to admit them. For proof, read many of the messages on this board. Easy to admit anonymously in your middle age, but, like Nathan's pupils in the school hall at 14 would I have done it?. Of course not. I don't know in the cricketing world what the reaction would be, I would just say in the musical world Nathan's post would probably get the slight smattering of applause the piano solo gets just before the drummer launches into his three minute solo. I don't doubt, if a pupil was brave enough to raise his fears to Nathan, he would listen with all due courtesy, but would he actually DO anything to remedy the situation?. I suspect not.

As regards the shower thing, as I have pointed out before, the whole of my life I have sweated ( I am told even as a baby my head used to be wet after eating hot food - my mum was worried about it but the doctor told her some babies do "overheat"). When I played music I would wear a lightweight summer suit even in winter and I still sweated profusely (luckily for me one of my friends parents owned a dry cleaners and I got mates rates), and that would be a two shower day. The same now lifting some of the equipment I sell and again two showers a day is nothing out of the ordinary. I don't like feeling dirty so showers were essential for me, and of course, since post schooldays they are private. I, and several others, used to take our towel in, because we didn't want to give Roberts an extra cheap thrill (not that I was his type luckily), I just didn't like being watched.

You are, of course, quite right about our teachers, David and I won't rehearse how bad they were. I'd just say if I were a schoolboy today, I would still resent that some schools still resort to the practices of the 1980s when other schools have a far more informal dress policy.


Matthew K: What a horrible experience. Your woman teacher sounds just the sort of bossy, insensate teacher that will no doubt (if still teaching) have her hand up to conduct the "teeth brushing lessons" that we have been promised in the future. As schools are so fond of phoning parents over the slightest matter, you would have thought she would have phoned your parents and asked if they would pay for a new shirt for you. I know, like doctors, teachers like to pretend they are overworked and underpaid, but I am sure she could have afforded to wait a day or two to get back her £5. The male teacher sounded far more sensible.

Comment by: Steve B on 25th February 2024 at 23:19

No that's not correct you have got the wrong PE teacher there Steve. Bullet had been and gone by 1988, he's another PE teacher.

Weird how things turn out, I only put this up on here just over two weeks ago on 10th February - "46 years, wow, that's so scary. Even a lot of the actual children in that are now dead. Benny the black kid and also recently big Alan are two I know of. I think Bullet Baxter the PE teacher might still be alive and kicking though, as is actor Roger Sloman too. They outlived some of the kids here."

Wrong man Steve B.

Mr Baxter never went higher than head of PE, he was not headmaster of Grange Hill.

Interesting to hear some confirmation about your brother doing the jump from PE to head though.

Comment by: Steve B on 25th February 2024 at 23:19
David made mention of ‘Bullet Baxter’ from Grange Hill rising from Head of PE to Headteacher stating how rare this would be.


You misread the post by David. The man who has just passed away was not the actor who played 'Bullet' Baxter in Grange Hill, Michael Cronin is his name and he is still alive and well as far as I know and according to wikipedia is now in his early 80's and may he have many more years in him. A very memorable and likeable character, who actually brought quite a bit of humour to the role I seem to remember, whilst also keeping it quite real and gritty. He smacked another PE teacher in the gym in front of the kids once for bullying a child in his class. How we cheered at home! He was in the show almost from the start but not quite, beginning in 1979 and going until 1986, covering all my primary and senior school years perfectly. Coming home from school to watch more school on TV was a must do event and I never missed it in those years.

The man who passed is another actor who came along a couple of years after Baxter left, called Mr Robson. I know little about him, vaguely recall him but he seemed a bit bland from memory but seems to have lasted on that show for quite some time. I slowly stopped watching it over time and think I last caught it in the late 80's some point, when I left school watching Grange Hill left me too.

Another good piece of trivia is that the most famous Grange Hill teacher of all, the household name that is Mrs McClusky, the actress Gwyneth Powell passed away almost unnoticed on the very same day as the Queen.

David made mention of ‘Bullet Baxter’ from Grange Hill rising from Head of PE to Headteacher stating how rare this would be.
My younger brother has done just this. After completing his degree and PGCE in Liverpool he started working as a PE teacher at a school in north Merseyside. Several moves and promotions later he became head of a school in Wigan and is now a Headtracher at a senior school in the Chorley area of Lancashire.
He was born in 1969 so was not yet in senior school when Grange Hill began in January 1978. I was a first year in seniors and we did shirtless indoor PE and had showers after our PE lessons. Our PE teachers were quite different one quite strict and the younger one less so but neither were bullies.
So in the case of my brothers career life did imitate art as they say.

Comment by: TimH on 25th February 2024 at 19:11
Another 'Tour de Force' from Nathan - Thanks.


That was a swinging good post from Nathan there. To use a cricketing analogy I think it was close to the boundary of being a six.

If any of my four sons, all now in early middle age, turn up in a video such as those from 1980 or 1983 then I would be more than fine with it. I'll only be concerned if the daughter does also.

There's nothing wrong with those days. To be a boy means to do things like that.

I think that your main issue is your terrible teachers Alan isn't it, not really the kit, or lack of at all. With really encouraging and decent teachers who you might have liked I think you'd have found easier acceptance and less long term bitterness. I noticed for example you have already stated that you did not mind school showers, something many fretted about. Nathan makes a good point on that subject in part of his post actually.

Big muscly bodies aren't everything. I used to like looking at the skinny boys the most. In first and second year at my Kent upper school we sometimes shared PE and boys had no shirts on. This will be right back to 1972. My advice, don't worry about it, you looked lovely, and the boys in Steven's clip remind me of the boys I used to share PE with at that age and none should be bashful about it.

This may be a slight deviation from the actual subject but I think it has value because the conversation is currently centred on the merits or otherwise of boys being asked or mandated to go with a bared chest for PE, even if they disliked the idea of doing so. My story involved such a thing but unconnected to PE.

Going back to June 1976 I was in my final year at primary school at the age of 12. Some schools went up at 11, others at 12 in those days, mine was 12. Other people here might already have been in their first year at secondary school while I was in my final one at primary at that age.

Two classes from our top primary year went on a coach trip to the Commonwealth Institute in London for the day. It was a quite warm day and nobody took coats or jackets and some of us were allowed to wear shorts on the trip if we wanted to and I did, our school uniform that day was optional and most of us came in our regular home clothes. We all had to make sure to take our lunch boxes and a bottle of juice. I took ribena, a favourite of mine.

I remember very little about this trip or what it was about and what we saw, apart from one thing. At lunchtime we sat around with our packed lunches and drinks and a boy from the other class thought it would be funny to throw my beaker of ribena I'd poured from my bottle, at me, covering my light coloured polo top all purple & red. It stained the whole thing over the front and shoulders. He got sent to face the wall and stand there hands on head as punishment for doing that.

I was a mess and sticky, and it didn't look good but I had nothing else to switch it with. I was only wearing the one layer that day as it was warm. The teacher (a woman) was furious with that kid for doing that and because I looked such a state she was wondering how to deal with me and asked the other teacher who came with us that day (male) what to do. He suggested me and him quickly find a shop and he could buy me a clean cheap makeshift top, after asking if anyone with us had a layer they could spare for me and getting no joy there. But the teacher who was directly in charge of our group (a woman) told him there was no time to be doing that and told me the simplest and quickest solution was for me to take it off, put it in my bag because she couldn't be having me walking around looking like that, stained all over with ribena, as it wouldn't look good.

I told her I was okay to walk around like that but she told me I couldn't and made me take my polo top off against my wishes and very reluctantly go bare chested, then got a tissue out and wiped away at my sticky chest too for added embarrassment just like she was my mother, it had come right through to the skin. It was actually the other teacher (male) who was not happy with this but she was in charge of our group and was a forceful character.

I remember saying I can't walk around like this for the rest of the trip. We still had all afternoon at the Institute ahead of us after lunch. I was just told it was a hot day and it would not matter, I'd be alright and if anyone not from our school asked, then tell them what happened and if anyone from the Institute asked she would explain my appearance. During the afternoon I was heard moaning about it and was told to stop complaining and pay attention by her. Various classmates were sniggering at me from time to time. The boy who did it to me was kept at the teachers side and not allowed to leave it.

So I was forced to spend an afternoon going around that venue with my school in my bared chest, and spend the whole trip home on the coach like that as well, facing jokes, which came thick and fast on the coach trip back.

Now that is when being bare chested is humiliating, and it was done to me by a female primary teacher.

When we got back to school at the end of the afternoon my teacher told me she was writing a quick note for me to take home and explain the ribena stained top to my parents. By that time I had been relieved of my top for hours on end and was used to it, it was very warm and I just walked home much the same rather than put this horrible sticky top back on, I could hardly suffer much more humiliation than I already had.

When I got in and handed the note over and got the stained top out the schoolbag my mum was cross as hell with that kid that did it but thought the teacher should have allowed me to decide if I wanted to spend half a day of our school trip going around a London attraction stripped to the waist. I felt like I had been punished more than the kid that did it to me actually.

But there is a good point to this as well and halfway through the afternoon going around the Institute my best friend at the time could see I was seriously peeved and asked his own male teacher in charge of him if he could take his top off so I didn't feel so bad about it and was allowed to. He was super confident. I was just averagely so. That's a best friend thinking about you.

Next day back in school out on the playground me and my best friend pinned the kid who did it to me against the wall and with another boy relieved him of his school shirt and tie and ran off with it, as he chased us and began crying to get it back.

In the years afterwards I did as much bare chest PE as anyone else at the time probably and I was largely accepting of it when it happened.

Lisa, did boys join your PE like that only once? If not, how often did this happen?

Do you remember if the girls ever spoke to the boys about it or teased them in any way?

Comment by Nathan Hind on 25th February 2024


"If I am correct in my assumption of you Alan, you were at school in the early 80s at the time these recent videos were taken. Just a touch before I was born, only just. The culture definitely has a different look and feel to today that's something I can see. But would you have ever considered an approach to your PE teacher, any of them, to express your worries and unhappiness, and even if you would not have done, what do you think the reaction might of been from say, your nicest PE teacher, you must have had at least one who seemed reasonable?"

With respect, Nathan, there seems little point in repeating what I have already said. Had you read some of my posts you will know I went to a run-down school, in East London, forever on the verge of closing and we had ONE P.E. teacher (no deputy) who listened to nobody. What chance do you think I would have had?.

You are talking of an especially unpleasant teacher of the old school, and I was dealing with him even before you were born, by your own admission.

I still, however, can find no reason why you are still submitting pupils to these old fashioned bare-chested teaching practices in the 21st century. I can only assume you are instructed to do so by your superiors, and like yourself, they have no reason for it except it is how things used to be done. The practices of yesterday are not necessarily the best ones for today.

As regards showers, at least you can take your towel to the shower with you (even if it gets a bit wetter) to give you a slight degree of modesty, or protection, call it what you will.

Of course, you are right if you held a vote in your school about that schools practices I guess all the lads would be reluctant to put their hands up, but why have an unnecessary system in the first place?. It should be clear to you that, even in later life, if you read other posts more than you do mine, many lads were unhappy with it in our own day and if anything kids are more sensitive today.

Another 'Tour de Force' from Nathan - Thanks.

If I'm looking at the right school it was Brackenber House in Belfast, a 'Prep School' that closed in about 1985.

Nathan asks us: My question - Do you really think the boys in Steven's film from 1980 are being humiliated, or the ones in the previous grainy video from a couple of years later?
After looking briefly at the film on YT - my answer is simply 'No' - there is a bit towards the end where two older boys are caught 'deep in conversation' (a 'Candid Camera' moment. The looks on their faces when they realise whats been happening ...
(Of course others may disagree)

I made a post a little while back about 6th Form PE back in the mid-60s. I missed out the last line which was something like: 'at the end of the session we all stripped off and showered - because it was the sensible thing to do'.

For footage of boys PE outside the school environment there is a 1962 'Look at Life' 'short' entitled 'Boys without Girls' - about the 'Boys Club' movement - an interesting view.

I'm being tempted back by the improved quality and a point I wish to raise about the clip left here by Steven today. Certainly some nice historic films coming up on here whatever you think of them.

But Alan, it always comes around to you so much here doesn't it, and I know I will never be able to fully satisfy you with my answers but let's leave that aside, we dealt with that one and don't need to go there again on my own specifics.

My question - Do you really think the boys in Steven's film from 1980 are being humiliated, or the ones in the previous grainy video from a couple of years later?

What I will suggest to you is that there are clearly differences between one generation and the next, it would be surprising if there were not, and there is more awareness nowadays surrounding personal issues as I've tried to suggest.

If you are not aware of a problem how can you solve it.

Now I suppose I could gather all the classes I take together throughout the week and simply ask for a show of hands about who is happy in PE and see if any remain down, or maybe I could directly ask for a show of hands asking for anyone to indicate a discomfort being asked to do the occasional PE lesson in a bare chest. But I tell you now what would happen, certainly in the latter case, there would be no show of hands, and not because they might all feel great about everything, nobody needs me on here to tell them how hard it would be to admit this. The story that Mark Twyford left on here was a very powerful one with a good message and I thought positive.

We do PE, some is non shirted. We require showers, they are as you'd expect, wearing nothing. But to reiterate, it is nobody's interest to impact anyone's mental health and wellbeing to the point of trauma about such things and if with some that was the case and it was identified then alternative provision would be sought. But just look at the Twyford comment, they did that and look what happened.

One other thing, I see a lot of comment surrounding the bare chest issue but within many of these comments a lot do not mention the shower that comes after PE, which if you are concerned about losing your shirt you must surely be even more concerned about losing everything but this does not always translate in many comments I have seen here. Perhaps it should be seen as an assumption that those who disliked PE done in a bare chest automatically felt the same when asked to shower after their lessons?

If I am correct in my assumption of you Alan, you were at school in the early 80s at the time these recent videos were taken. Just a touch before I was born, only just. The culture definitely has a different look and feel to today that's something I can see. But would you have ever considered an approach to your PE teacher, any of them, to express your worries and unhappiness, and even if you would not have done, what do you think the reaction might of been from say, your nicest PE teacher, you must have had at least one who seemed reasonable?

Whether I continue to contribute will depend on the quality of the posts.

Comment by: Chris 69 on 24th February 2024 at 18:11




"I was born in Nov 69 which made all my teenage years sit within the eighties.

Like many other men who seem to be around my age on here, I had very similar outcomes in PE at that time.

Just went to the local comp like many of us.

Never was a fan of going bare chested in school PE. It made me feel very self conscious almost every time I did it. I definitely did not like being told to do so when we already had a kit we could wear.

Although we had a set PE kit for both indoors and outdoors which we had to bring on the right days, I'd say that when it came to going in the school gym for those days we must have actually put on the proper PE kit in about 20 percent of cases because the teachers weren't interested in boys doing PE covered up and all of them acted the same as each other and made us keep our tops off and do those lessons bare chested.....


"When we did stick the PE tops on I think it was either because we were doing one of those notorious skin and shirts games against each other or the PE teacher was feeling generous and having a good day or something. It's not worth trying to understand the why's of it all I think.

But my own father told me he never did PE like that in his school in the fifties and sixties period. He said he always wore a slim firm fitting white vest along with everyone else and never remembers doing PE in school at any age in a bare chest like I did in the eighties.

Going back another generation I have a grandfather who was in the navy and I have got many photo's of him on ship, and some include what they then called PT (physical training as opposed to education) and in all of them he is wearing a white vest as well. There are no bare chests to be seen in any of the photos I have from his navy days on ship.

Quite what all this means I have no idea."

Your father and grandfather's experiences backs up what I said recently, Chris, that the documentary films I have seen on television, which shows services PT sessions - even for conscripts - were done with singlets.

What it means, I am sure is that the teachers just want to exercise the power that is given to them. Most teachers I knew of would be aware of, but totally uninterested in, the humiliation they sought to impose. All their excuses for it is just that - excuses with no basis in fact.

Here's an excellent video from the 1980s showcasing physical education as I recall it: boys always stripped to the waist, wearing white shorts, barefoot indoors, and with white socks and trainers for outdoor activities. These pupils seem disciplined and well-behaved. It's disheartening to observe how much cultural regression has occurred in Britain since then.
https://youtu.be/uyzO5cA14v8?si=-1GnZ9rXWB-oCCID&t=16

There was a recent mention of the Grange Hill school programme on here regarding the PE scenes in it and teachers.

I just saw online that an actor called Stuart Organ, a name that meant nothing to me, but did have a familiar face from TV, one of those know the face not the name types, has passed away.

Taken direct from his wikipedia entry tonight,

'Organ was best known for his portrayal of the character Mr. Robson in the children's television drama Grange Hill. Organ portrayed the series' longest-serving teacher, arriving in 1988 as the new head of PE. In 1998 he finally landed the headmaster's job, but left the series in 2003 soon after production of Grange Hill transferred to Liverpool.'


I know it's fiction, but what I found interesting and a point worth raising here is that a PE teacher became an actual head teacher. Just how common is that in reality I wonder? It just feels rare.