Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Dave on 21st February 2024 at 13:08
The video contains a gym display from the 80's in a schoolgala. All of the boys are barechested. Well that is a gym dysplay but I don't think they get them their shirts off only for the event. I think it is their bacic PE kit. It is interesting to see how talented they are doing complex exercises.



I didn't watch much of the poor quality video from 1983 and just saw the early seconds with the girls, it gave the general idea, I didn't get to any boys doing anything but my point is, so what?

Wasn't it the woman from Florida, Paula who ran a gym school, who said the meaning of the word "gymnastics" is literally to exercise naked. Well I wouldn't go that far of course, although back in her own country they did seem to do naked PE of a kind when boys had to swim many years ago according to reports, but that's in water so not quite comparable to what we regard as PE.

I'm sure it was their basic PE kit, and there's nothing wrong with it or being told to do gym or even a gym display like that is there? You leave the clip because you approve or disapprove of it Dave?

I was at a private boarding school at the same time as that video. We did things just like that too, and we wore no tops and did so barechested as well. To me it felt the most natural thing in the world and made me confident. I don't know what it is about the state sector in the past that has given so many men such a terrible complex about themselves.

I know we were all quite fit and active and seemed very able and were made to be. Worrying about taking your shirt off and showing off your body to others in PE, even in our friends and family PE displays was not a big deal to me, and if it was to anyone else I never noticed, and we were made to do so, it was a compulsory element of what we were expected to get on with.

No lad should be worried about being seen in bare chest doing some gym, with his mates, among a few girls or a wider crowd like the video appears to show. I wasn't.

It's only through taking the kind of attitude I have that I think you build on real lasting confidence.

Comment by: Dave on 21st February 2024 at 15:36

What freedom are you fighting for Dave?

I forgot to add that not one of my sons has yet provided me with any grandsons which until recently I had thought was a great shame but now I'm not so sure, it might be a blessing in the current climate.

Well made points Michael. It looks to me like a lot of people would have enjoyed school far better if PE had simply been off the agenda completely. But I think it should be there and keeping fit and active should be a priority.

Us youngsters in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's and even when my own children were around in the 1990's were a lot more active in general even outside of school, and certainly in the 70's and 80's they were, staying out a lot and doing things that took energy, bike riding, climbing trees, walking everywhere, and at the same time we also went to school and had more than one PE lesson each week as well and put a lot of effort into them, or were expected to.

Now we have a less physically active era of youngsters who often get driven everywhere, barely walk much, sit at home on screens, and are incredibly sedentary compared to those of us from the decades I mentioned at the start. Even my own sons who went to school in the 90's are noticing it.

Yet this less active young lot nowadays are getting far less PE in school nowadays, most only get the one lesson a week now and are not getting much out of school either. Yet at the same time many of these same youngsters today are far more obsessed with their appearances in a superficial way than ever before. It's all so upside down and about face.

If they are not getting the exercise out of school and activity that we once did as a matter of routine then you might think that the schools would feel they should be increasing their PE, not reducing it to the bare minimum they can get away with.

During the 90's my own three boys PE seemed in line with how I did things in the early 70's, the only difference being as I previously stated that I got a stricter middle school PE time at the very start of the 70's than they did which even included less common primary showers. I always did at the least two PE lessons each week plus other activity that required moving such as country dancing as well and music based movement activity, set aside from any PE.

I don't think anybody engaged with my comment previously made about modern PE classes. If you are out in PE at half ten in the morning doing some rugby in this weather how do you stay clean, and how is it possible to do some of the things I remember me and my own sons doing and not clean up afterwards? Mud and dirt was a permanent part of PE for me at school over the winter months outdoors. Don't they allow them tio get like that anymore or something?

Sorry I haven't sent the link in my last comment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvk1Moxdva0

What video? Nobody has mentioned any such thing on here. Your comment is confusing and I've read back a few pages and found nothing relating to what you just said.

I'm broadly in agreement with both the comments of Alan and Michael earlier today on here.

With you Alan I took a look at some of the pages you mentioned that I've not seen before and picked up clearly what you mean, without a shadow of a doubt about it.

With you Michael, another good point and I do think some people have been saying things pent up for years about their schooldays so long after the event and as you say this could act as a cathartic process.

My own IP should come along as ending in 67.199 if I am correct, as I've posted from the same device each time in the same place, so if it doesn't I will be wondering why! Although like many others nowadays I could pass comment via about 4 different sources, an iPad, am old laptop, a full desktop or my phone, each would provide a different IP I think, or of course if on the move say sitting on a train like I've been reading the comments in another location but on the same device that could offer up a new number too. But broadly speaking it looks sensible and the numbers are matching up with a brief cross reference, which I did with mine just to check it out.

The video contains a gym display from the 80's in a schoolgala. All of the boys are barechested. Well that is a gym dysplay but I don't think they get them their shirts off only for the event. I think it is their bacic PE kit. It is interesting to see how talented they are doing complex exercises.

Referring to previous comments about early contributions to this section, I reckon there is a cathartic function; a psychological relief through the open expression of emotions, by being able to relate one's past experiences.

I've been able to 'work through' various long-pent-up memories of perceived unfairnesses and even injustices, by simply sharing them here and occasionally eliciting some reaction. For this reason alone, I've found this section to be an emotional outlet.

So, may I thank the site creator/moderator for making available this opportunity, and any readers who have been patient enough to read my offerings.

Perhaps a researcher of the distant future will regard the comments on this site as a valuable insight into contributors' thoughts and feelings; aspects which are not left on record as often as they might be.

Comment by: Lance on 20th February 2024 at 23:18


"It's been a while since I checked the place out. There are some really good comments coming through at the moment. Love the new IP system."

I totally agree with you Lance, and I wish it had been done long ago. On Sunday evening we had a power cut here, and since my Chromebook was fully charged, and the power cut lasted 2 hours or so, I had a look back on here to look at early pages . I got from page 1 to 150, and what strikes you immediately is the quality has improved considerably. In those early days there were several women contributors, and a few of the men seemed inordinately interested in the "type of knickers" those women had worn for PE. For their part some of these women laboured the point of how much they had enjoyed seeing boys with no tops on in their co-ed PE classes, especially if they were sweating. . One bisexual man echoed that appreciation. There were oft-repeated stories given in great detail about school medicals, some of them undergoing procedures that usually only middle aged men would undergo, - (at 15!) and of older teenage boys wearing short trousers and being "forced to strip" by their fathers when they got home from school. Another subject that occurred again and again was the wearing of jockstraps and how young they were when they started using them. A distinct feeling of fetishism and homoeroticism pervaded those early posts. If only the IPs were available in retrospect. I think the new system has weeded out all of that now. Whether you agree with the poster or not, you do get a sense now of real and genuine discourse.

It's been a while since I checked the place out. There are some really good comments coming through at the moment. Love the new IP system.

Mickey Grant - '1. We'd have been in our 20s, and most of us had chosen to go shirtless in the sun - but the shirtless ones include me (skinny, pale, pectus), my friend who was chubby and very hairy. The two who were arguably best looking and had the better physiques stayed shirted.'


Isn't it so, Mickey. It was the same with me, the body was averagely okay but I just liked to keep a shirt on it, that was how I felt best. PE prevented me from doing that too many times though and I was always self conscious being made to. But I remember at least two chubby boys in my PE group and one who was definitely far too big for his age and very chubby but he didn't give a toss about it. That's the irony I suppose. If he didn't care how he looked that's why he might have ended up overweight so young.

I also liked the post by Mark Twyford as well. Despite my own personal feelings on the shirtless issue in PE and my own feelings how I felt when like that I would never have wanted to be the only one in PE wearing a top so it comes as no surprise to read that story how it ended up.

The head teacher that 'A Yorkshire Dad' works under is going in completely the opposite direction to modern thinking isn't he. It's not so much that he wants some PE to be done with the chest bare in summer but that he thinks it the answer to his problem as he sees it - heat exhaustion, if what our friend here is correct in saying.

The more common consensus nowadays is to cover up in summer, mostly down to protecting the skin in too much sunlight if outside. Does the recent rule change apply to either a summer class in or out regards the heat, or both?

I agree with the person who told you to speak more about this with your head who made the decision. His reason is slightly misguided. don't others actually realise this and have have you spoken like you have on this forum to anyone you work with at all? By all means give the instruction but do it for the right reason.

There were no religious differences in our treatment at school which was quite diverse at one stage with multi faith inclusion, yet everyone when it came to PE was expected to take part in the same way as each other, when asked not to wear a top we all did that and when told to shower we all did that too, as I explained just a few days ago. Whilst I mentioned the holocaust a few days ago due to my own Jewish heritage, on a more upbeat note, and the naturist comment prompted me into saying this, despite all our diversities at school and where we came from and our own faiths, when you strip down, either semi-naked in the lesson without the tops and especially when you go naked with others, all the differences evaporate and you are made to understand that we are really all just the same underneath (foreskin excluded in my case) even if we do have various skin shades and body sizes. I can truthfully say that apart from facing some childish taunting over why my penis looked different to the others I never faced any other kind of physical comments, noticed many or even had any religious hatred towards me or saw anyone else receive it either. Apart from my clear difference to the others and their ignorance at that age, nobody cared about all the other differences. It seems to be when we grow up into adults that we do.

Combining the two points of Mickey and Narada, on the body shape and also religious angle, the noticeable thing about what I saw on my flower delivering in Dunstable the other day when I came across the running boys from the school I named in that area was that it was only the white ones running bare chested and there were about, I think three or four non white runners in the smaller shirted group. I don't know what that proves or means, if anything and it might just have been a coincidence and I'm reading something into nothing.

About this time last week I wrote the following in brackets on here.

(But someone has already said it, and I'd like to add, that we must do our best to avoid making this thread an obsessed discussion focusing too much on abusive practices as we now see them, and these things no longer happen as policy, that's a good thing everyone will agree I hope.

Just a quick clarification though Alan on this shirtless/showering thing, do you consider that to be a form of abuse if asked to do in school nowadays? Because I most certainly do not, but you give the impression to me that you do think so.)



I think you answered my questions fairly clearly, but I would suggest that you retire your abusive teacher Mr Roberts from now on and think about what I said in my first part, and even more so that teacher called Quinlan who you have mentioned a few times now from media articles.

I think every single person on this forum understands that such undesirables exist among us, whatever our opinions are held regarding how school PE operated then, or operates now.

On Mickey's point with his mates, it's a bit like naturists, some of the more unappealing specimens often like getting stripped off and showing it all while the rest of us with something worth looking at keep under wraps!

On Will's comment, absolutely at one on that. The primary factor in heat exhaustion won't be caused by anyone wearing his thin short sleeved t-shirt in PE in the warm and either wearing it or being a skin won't make much impact either way, it's fluids and obviously how hard they are being pushed for the conditions and if it's appropriate for those conditions. You would not expect a PE teacher to send class out on a hot boiling summer day of say 30 degrees on a five mile run, and with nobody taking water before the off. It would not be wearing a t-shirt that causes any issues.

On you Alan, I wonder how well you are able to read the room sometimes.

Slightly side-stepping.

Recently going through some digital photos from the early 00s of myself and friends playing frisbee in the park, and remembering that lads weekend, I am struck by the following which didn't cross my mind at the time.

1. We'd have been in our 20s, and most of us had chosen to go shirtless in the sun - but the shirtless ones include me (skinny, pale, pectus), my friend who was chubby and very hairy. The two who were arguably best looking and had the better physiques stayed shirted.

2. Most of us bedded down in sleeping bags in one large living room. Yet I know I would have worn my t shirt and boxers to sleep in, yet remember the non-shirtless frisbee players going shirtless. Most were, I think.

It isn't exactly scientific but I suppose it shows reasons for not wanting to go shirtless can be context dependant, and not consistent.

The man who says muslim boys are forbidden from removing clothing is incorrect. Like everyone else my ethnicity was not considered at school. I was treated the same as everyone else, I played a lot of basketball without my shirt on, and was expected to take a shower when finished mixed in with the rest. I did not complain about this, my family did not. The argument the man made about some schools in the north of England I think is false and misleading. Special favours were not given to us.

Comment by Gary on 19th February at 18.21

Gary, Clearly Mr Twyford was a very different teacher to our Mr Roberts, and a certain Mr Quinlan. The difference between those two is that Quinlan got caught and Roberts didn't:

https://www.google.com/search?q=michael+quinlan+royal+liberty+school+court+appearance&rlz=1CAFORO_enGB1085GB1085&oq=michael+quinlan+royal+liberty+school+court+appearance&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigAdIBCTIwMzk5ajBqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

What made the Quinlan case more horrific is that two more of his colleagues were found to be at fault for the same offences, in the same school - an all boys school, which was the reason I was questioning the need or desirability of single sex schools the other day.. I will not elaborate, except to say here is the Google page, if you want to read it. The evidence from his own mouth in the second Quinlan trial is quite appalling. Let's just say I wouldn't have liked to have been a blonde lad in his class.

I have never suggested that ALL teachers are cut from the same cloth, just that while we applaud Mr Twyford and Mr Hind we should never forget that there were - and are - unfortunately, some very bad ones. In the same way that while most policemen are a credit to their profession, however, far too many men entered that profession for the wrong reasons. They should, in a modern society, have been weeded out at the selection process.

Yorkshire Dad.

Take shirts off in PE in summer to avoid heat exhaustion. That would not be caused by shirt wearing. More likely dehydration and lack of fluids. Provide water instead. Going bare chested won't be that effective. I agree with you, it's an odd one that.

I went to a school that did all PE without shirts (inside) in the mid eighties.

I'm pleased you came back to say more there. Would you ever consider asking the pupils about their thoughts about it? If you're concerned, and you clearly are, then you should, don't take silence for indifference from the pupils.

Nothing wrong with shirtless PE of course. Just allow them a choice if they feel too hot, and make sure they drink water. Tell that to the head.

So Archie has changed his tune? A teacher there then. A result. I wonder how many more Archie's are out there?

I thought that Mark sounded lovely. I had some really nice men take me for PE during that decade you taught Mark, but I always thought a few of them felt they had to play up to the typical PE teacher stereotype. I had one man who admitted to our whole class he'd happily let us all out the door without showering last lesson of the day but couldn't risk getting found out doing so by the headmaster we had at the time because it could affect his career!!!!

I had another PE teacher who was actually German who was on a one year exchange to our school with one of our own from this country. He was worse than any of the English PE teachers we had, went the full scale bare chest route for his lessons in PE, inside gym as well as a lot outside through early summer and was literally a madman when it came to enforcing us going into the showers in his German accent. We used to mimic him mercilessly both behind his back and sometimes to his face and he had no sense of humour whatsoever about it.

What inspirational decency from Mark Twyford.

I think you handled that boy remarkably well and what an outcome to get him to finally approach you and change his mind. I suspect you thought he might end up doing this eventually.

I detect a far more positive attitude generally in recent reads and a new found respect. Good!

I'll add my own praise for what I saw written here by Mark Twyford last night which I think was so nicely said. We have heard too much about "Roberts" and not enough about the decency many of our teachers had, as Mark said, in some quite difficult circumstances on occasion.

Mark mentioned how he dealt with football for instance, as well as the difficulties, and that nails it. You have a random collection of about 30 boys come together into a class, of all kinds of abilities, interests, personalities, the confident, the unconfident, the shy and the cocky and with that one big mix a man is expected to deal with them all in the same way, do much the same thing with them all, and is it any wonder that's harder then it seems. When you look at it like that it begins to seem an almost impossible task to keep everyone happy with their lot.

If that proves to have been your one and only post Mark then it was a cracking good one, and I though Nathan had some good ones too, nice to see you acknowledge that by the way Nathan.

A Yorkshiredad, I think quite a few people have asked for a follow up so nice to see you come along with one again.

This line is one I will take a pick at with you, if this was offered as an actual explanation and I'm sure other actual teachers on here might wish to comment who know more than me, but serious heat exhaustion as you describe it is not going to be caused by anyone wearing a single layer t-shirt on a hot summer's day in a PE class I feel sure that it would take a lot more than that to cause such a reaction.

A Yorkshiredad; 'It seems that just before my arrival at this school a couple of boys did suffer the effects of serious heat exhaustion, (head aches, nausea, lethargy), while in PE so the change in kit is designed to pre-empt this happening again'

Sorry Archie, I have popped back onto the site a couple of times since posting but I got the impression there was not much interest in my post. If you have questions please ask them again.

The change in summer indoor kit did seem very strange at first but I have to say that it soon became normal. No boys complained openly and neither did any parent, which is why I was so interested when I first found this site and read peoples own testimonies.

My own son is eight now and at this school so next year it will apply to him. My wife and I feel the school policy is out of tune with todays norms but as long as my son shows no concern we wont either. I guess the other parents will be the same. Seeing all the boys are conditioned to obey teachers instructions at school this probably explains their quiet acceptance of the situation.

It seems that just before my arrival at this school a couple of boys did suffer the effects of serious heat exhaustion, (head aches, nausea, lethargy), while in PE so the change in kit is designed to pre-empt this happening again. If the children became ill at school the parents would have had to be informed and you can easily understand the school would not want that to happen again. As there was no reoccurrence of heat exhaustion last year you could say the policy worked.

Like others, may I offer my Thanks to Mark Twyford for his recent posting.

TH

Another interesting set of comments. I would just take issue with oen of them:

Comment by: Stuart B on 18th February 2024 at 16:06

"The term "Body Shaming" is a modern day buzzword, a kind of soundbite.

The simple truth is that this "body shaming" if we must now use that term was rampant in school PE lessons under some men, not all of course.

If you've got a 15 stone 14 year old then it's quite fair to draw attention to such an unhealthy body weight and shape I think. I think there are things that can be said about the body that are fair, such as the example I give. To simply ignore it would be negligent I'd suggest to you."

Yes Stuart it is a modern expression, and I tend not to use them ("calling so-and so out" is my bete noir) but in the cases Mark Maynard and myself mentioned, where a teacher has either joined in with pejorative comments, started or continued it, what else can you call it?.

I have to say I never remember an obese lad in our class, and I suspect in some cases when this occurs it is a glandular problem rather than gluttony, and while I agree with you if a situation is dangerous to health it should be remarked upon - but HOW you do it is the question. If I were confronted with that sort of problem, I would contact the parent(s). I don't think showing the lad up in front of his class is the right way to go about things.

Don''t think I am having a go at you, Stuart, but there seems to be two types of PE teacher who give trouble - those who think they are army PT instructors and want to turn out army fodder rather than well rounded individuals, and those who regard themselves as a bit of an entertainer or showman, and regard their classes as a studio audience to laugh at their wit. Such as it is.

The question remains - it was hinted at by somebody other than myself, why do PE teachers think they are a special case?. You couldn't get through your school years without learning to read and write, but leaping over objects, climbing ropes and jumping to attention at the blast of a whistle is fairly unimportant, unless you want a career in sport, which is usually short-lived anyway. Most professional sportsmen are retired by the time they are 40.

Well isn't it good to see some common sense teachers putting in a bit of comment tonight.

There is very little I can disagree with regarding what Mark Twyford put in his post, and without knowing the full facts in his case I cannot comment satisfactorily on his own story about the boy and whether we would have acted the same or not. If I am to be completely frank I would have been unlikely to have followed that course. It just prolongs the problem which is best nipped in the bud quickly.

Although I hold slightly differing opinions nowadays I did not think anyone who was a boy in school should hold any fears while sharing with those the same as himself, all boys together, the same age, were expected to knuckle down and act like grown ups, empathy for the kinds of things that get talked about on here was in short supply.

Our school had its fair share of problem boys, no more or less than anywhere else and I can confirm the same as Mark Twyford that there were a small minority who would wish not to take a shirtless lesson but I never saw notes about it. I think we might have had a handful of shower exemption requests, possibly by letter to the head that got passed along. The final decision would have been the head of PE on that but there was little chance of success there. We were not going to start creating one rule for some and another for the majority. Everyone was expected to do the same, showering or shirtless PE when needed. I had little sympathy for those who played about making a fuss about such things in their underhand ways at the time. But I've changed my tune nowadays.

There was some leeway over PE participation however. Such as flu recovery. If we had boys that had been off school for more than a week and had returned but were still feeling weakened by it there was an allowance to exempt PE for a further week, and that seemed fair and reasonable to me. But this did have to be accompanied by a note detailing the illness and if possible it helped if the family doctor could provide something too but wasn't essential, we took the parents word as proof enough. If we were in doubt about a note it got passed to the school admin to follow up and come back to us and confirm.

What a pity the Yorkshire Dad teacher has chosen not to respond to the multiple requests to do so surrounding his own question he raised about his head's request this summer for his PE classes. I would have liked to hear more.

Many people who disliked PE in their own childhood will have looked at what Bill wrote and found that to be a backward old school step, but actually I take the view that it is a far more forward looking and healthy option to allow that kind of PE if desired. I concur with the follow up takes on what is likely to have been occurring there.

Shirtless PE was always applied where I was in a completely non discriminatory way, everyone had to do it when told. I don't see that as anything unkind to ask of anyone in school, but unlike when I was in the thick of it myself I'd be more willing to listen than I, and most others once were.

For his era, I found the actions of Mark Twyford most enlightening and unusual compared to my own expectations and experience.

From 13-18 I attended a mixed school which placed a big emphasis on PE/Games. Vests were preferred to t-shirts though both were on the kit list but t-shirts were never worn.
Indoors vests vs skins were preferred for team games and those picked to strip off were expected to do so very quickly and without fuss.
Gym/fitness were performed with all boys barechested, and expected to show sweat
Cross country and athletics were always performed barechested too. I did receive remedial PE sessions during my time which resulted in being taken out of class, changing into shorts/trainers and absolutely no vest and instructed to run around the rather large field until basically you couldn't run any further and regardless of the conditions. Yes I really do mean any weather.
Then you had the joy of catching up whatever was missed. Once a month our teachers also had each PE/Games class workout outside all boys barechested.Tough but worth every second.

Mark Twyford.

An absolutely stunningly good and ultimately positive post about a PE teacher from one himself.

The school I was at, Filton High, just before you were a teacher, did PE all the time in gym like you wrote. I don't actually remember anyone actually wanting to escape being bare chested like that so openly and I doubt they would have been allowed actually but it;s possible I suppose if a parent is pushy enough about it.

A reminder of my school gym from Flickr, catch the rest of what I wrote on 6th February, not my actual class but the gym the year before I got there, but boys just like me all the same.

I could not imagine just one boy in my PE gym wanting to stand out alone against the rest of us like that.

It does not surprise me that boy changed his mind within only a few months and came asking you that when he didn't. That's the power of peer pressure for you and a feeling of wanting to belong that even overode a boy with such a deep sense of shyness about his appearance that his mum made school contact about it. Ultimately the belonging and wanting to bond with his mates won out and did him a great favour by the sound of it, with the help of a decent bunch of teachers along the way to help him through. Fabulous!

https://www.flickr.com/people/134490316@N07

https://www.flickr.com/photos/134490316@N07/