Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 21st April 2024 at 22:19




"Chris A. I've never had such a letter, but if I was to receive one then I would receive it sympathetically, have a chat with that pupil, maybe also the parents who sent the letter, and be prepared to accept such a request. I would never be dismissive in that manner. From my point of view the potential issue could become a fellow pupils one, youngsters don't tend to like it when one person in a class is seen to get special treatment. I refer you to the Mark Twyford comment left here on 18th February this year and the power of peer pressure in school...."

Nathan, this hardly applies in your own school though, does it?. According to your poll, there were 5/6 boys in each class who felt less comfortable shirtless, so there wouldn't just be an odd one out. Why not allow those lads to feel more comfortable by wearing shirts?. The others who prefer to work without would not have any grounds to feel hard done by.

It seems common sense, to me, but due to your endorsement of Thomas' remarks ("......I note what you also said Thomas and think you are along the right lines there....."), I put it you that you are, in fact, biased towards shirtless PE which is one of the reasons you make your lads take part in it from time to time, and probably the reason the vote was so heavily in favour. Some lads are notorious people pleasers You should have been a politician.


Comment by: Neil on 22nd April 2024 at 17:49


"....Alan, do you write on any other forums on this subject?..."

No, Neil, I don't, but even a cursory reading of this board will tell you there are many others who think like I do.

Comment by: A Yorkshiredad on 8th April 2024 at 10:21
On the point of school showers, I do not know of any primary school that requires them. Pre-pubescent boys simply do not sweat that much, I have never seen a boy "soaked in sweat" in one of my PE classes. To require showers in primary schools would simply be odd.




Hi, A Yorkshiredad. I presume you are/were a teacher of some sort.

When I was at middle school from the age of nine upwards we had to make use of the communal shower plus provided soap that my school had back at the time there after just about every PE lesson going and it was compulsory to do it fully naked in a small and quite narrow but long oblong shaped white and dark blue tiled area with lines of showerheads high up down both sides so that if you stood in the middle you could get a burst from two at once. We all went in at once and it was a bit of a squeeze for something like 16 to 18 boys. This was in 1973 - 76. Like you say at that age, I rarely remember being at all sweaty after PE in my middle school, or particularly dirty at any time, but we still had to go in the showers after PE and wash and soap down properly until the teacher was satisfied. I can still remember how incredibly nervous many of us felt about it the first time. "Seeing" other boys like that proved nerve wracking initially but also interesting in some way.

As a subtext to this memory, for some reason there were a couple of occasions when the school matron, a rather round and overweight middle aged woman, would supervise us doing this. I have no idea why this must have been, perhaps there was some discreet observance health reason for it but after such a long time I have no idea. The normal man who used to take middle school PE with us always supervised us and made sure we behaved and in particular for some reason I recall him making sure we dried ourselves properly before dressing.

So by the time I attended secondary school such things had already become second nature, lessening the impact that others must have felt who didn't do the showers thing at middle school. I thought this was the norm at that age back then and only latterly realised that only a fraction of middle schools ever asked the class to do showers after PE, and mine was one.

And like many write on here of their secondary school and grammar experiences of PE, at my middle school the boys did PE in our bare chests and feet, beside girls in the main hall. Girls obviously took a shower separately but we could always hear them in ther own changing room and I suppose they could hear us too.

But when I went to secondary school in the late 70's I did less bare chested PE than I did at middle school, just the skins against shirts basketball springs to mind and maybe some indoor football and the occasional fitness tests like timed press ups and the like were done like that. Showers never stopped being compulsory though. The imagery plays in my mind quite clearly from those days and so do some of the sounds.

James, try this:

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-children-playing-in-the-sea-and-splashing-1902-online

This is one of the films that the BFI kindly designate as "free" so the public at large can watch it. I'm sorry you had problems.

Comment by: Matthew S on 18th April 2024 at 22:55

Your link does not work Matthew. It looks as if you need to be a registered member to view content of the BFI.

Nathan, that seemed a very mature and responsible comment, certainly not sounding like a teacher treating anyone like s--t like Chris wrote of his days, although I can well believe it in the mid seventies. You gave your lads a chance to say what they felt about doing shirtless PE, you sound like you've gone the extra mile to understand your own youngsters.

Alan, do you write on any other forums on this subject?

Chris A.

I've never had such a letter, but if I was to receive one then I would receive it sympathetically, have a chat with that pupil, maybe also the parents who sent the letter, and be prepared to accept such a request. I would never be dismissive in that manner. From my point of view the potential issue could become a fellow pupils one, youngsters don't tend to like it when one person in a class is seen to get special treatment. I refer you to the Mark Twyford comment left here on 18th February this year and the power of peer pressure in school.

I note what you also said Thomas and think you are along the right lines there.

Comment by: Chris A on 20th April 2024 at 22:2

..." Pure torture, and I hated going shirtless and just as much having no shoes and socks on. It really made me feel exposed. So my parents wrote a letter asking if I could wear a tee shirt or a vest for PE and my trainers and when I handed it to my PE teacher he just laughed at me and screwed it up and told me not to waste his time. .....

....Basically we were all treated like sh*t."


I never know if P.E. teachers are pig ignorant, or if they take evening classes in it. They always seem the most ignorant and ill-mannered of their profession. Perhaps it is just self-awareness that their particular speciality is of minor importance, compared to other fields of education - for example, physics, English, Maths.

I fully understand how you felt though, Chris

Comment by: Chris A on 20th April 2024 at 22:21

I'm sorry to hear that Chris. I remember feeling awkward among girls in my early to mid teens quite a lot and that was with my clothes on. I can imagine it would have been difficult to be thrust among the girls for PE if like as you say, you were very self conscious about yourself and were made to do so in what seems like just shorts by what you said, in your bare chest and feet. I can understand why you felt like you did in that case. It seems a regular type of comment that pops up. Perhaps a little more consideration was due at times in those days, although I think it was wrong to dismiss a letter so abruptly. Perhaps he was one of those teachers who used to think any letter given to him was a forgery.

Disliked PE intensely. Disliked taking my clothes off even more. Bit of a problem that when it's an English North London secondary school in 1976 that gives you three lessons of PE each week and wants boys without stripped of their shirts and footwear in two gym lessons a week. Pure torture, and I hated going shirtless and just as much having no shoes and socks on. It really made me feel exposed. So my parents wrote a letter asking if I could wear a tee shirt or a vest for PE and my trainers and when I handed it to my PE teacher he just laughed at me and screwed it up and told me not to waste his time. We showered naked too but I knew that was impossible to get out of so didn't even try to get out of that. We shared with girls once a week and that was hell.

Basically we were all treated like sh*t.

Despite everything that gets said on here from time to time it was quite heartening to read the recent school survey instigated by a serving physical education teacher (Nathan) that showed the vast majority of his classes actually wanted to do his lessons in bare chests when told to. Sensible lads, and a sensible school that still wishes to take PE lessons like this and get them showered properly afterwards too. Just how it should be. The sign of mature thinking.

Comment by: Richard on 18th April 2024 at 22:44


"What is the disgusting element of the video Alan?"


There is a story that a lady once went up to Louis Armstrong and asked him to define rhythm. He replied "If you has to ask lady, you ain't got it"

I think that is the best reply I can offer you, Richard

I have a shirtless story from school, the one worth telling, and it doesn't revolve around a PE session at all but a weekend away in Dorset in 1981 when my second year comprehensive school teacher took us away with a couple of parent helpers including my own father to keep us all in line. On arrival we got taken along and onto Bournemouth beach Saturday lunchtime and our class teacher, a geography teacher, male aged about 40, insisted that all the boys had to be on the beach properly and this meant we had to take whatever tops and jackets we wore on the coach trip right off and sod about shirtless on the sand and water edge. Unsurprisingly the girls had no such requirement. My father on that trip even played second fiddle to my teacher there and told me to do as he, the teacher, said. I couldn't believe it when we'd settled down and began to enjoy ourselves and the teacher and one of the other dads picked me and a handful of others to go for a walk along the promenade and onto the pier which had just been renovated at the time I think, and we had to go off shirtless with them for this and were actually told to leave all our bits behind. I felt everyone was staring at me although felt better that I was among about six others who were the same.

School in 1984, I was 12 then, required that all boys in my gym classes showed out as skins while we took any type of PE lesson inside the school, either inside the school's gymnasium or its sports hall complex. I remember we used to have to get special permission to wear a PE shirt in these places and it was often refused, such as if it was cold weather outside which made the gym perishing some days. My body was ghostly white and very thin at the time with not a lot of fat to keep me warm. So many of us were the same. It wasn't so much that they forced us into PE like that but more that it was sometimes so cold doing PE this way and would have been even if we had shirts on in the school gym. It was unusual for any PE teacher to relent against boys barechested PE at school between the ages of 12 and 14 especially which to me seemed the strictest years going. The windows of the gym were often left open wide even in winter as well. I remember feeling warmer at times doing PE outside when I could actually wear a long sleeved top than I did inside stripped to the shorts alone.

I found PE teachers at my own school to be quite controlling over decisions on what boys were allowed to wear or not and always to opt for the skins rule for gym and the school uniform rules made it easy for them to do this blanket across the whole school because the school rules stated that - to ensure maximum attendance and participation, boys are not expected to wear any top in PE unless instructed otherwise, so without fail every PE teacher I had felt quite able to impose the skins way of doing PE on the lot of us almost always for the school gym.

One November morning at the age of 13 back in 1985 myself and the class got an unexpected treat of an unscheduled PE lesson because a large number of teachers had gone down sick with flu and sore throats so we got a number of lessons cancelled and packed off into the hands of the PE teachers but without anyone having kit. No matter! Wondering how that was going to work out we filed along to the changing room and it was 'strip to your pants boys' and that was it, off to gym sporting our various undergarments. Simplicity itself. I was far more conscious of my pants that morning than my bare chest.

I think one of the reasons for going skins for PE is the simplicity. I always remember seeing boys doing PE in their pants a lot if they claimed their PE shorts were in the wash or something like that. It was the same when we all went swimming, lost property had various pairs of swim shorts so if you came into school without anything with a view to not doing it then you got made to rustle around the lost property box for something and still have to go, and who would want to wear second hand swim shorts! It was a good incentive just to bring your stuff.

I came across this delightful family film from 1902, showing three children at the seaside merrily chucking water over their mother and uncle, all of them in the costumes of the day. Given this is a history site and there has been a swimming discussion, I thought the film might be worth mentioning.

Go to https://player.bfi.org.uk/ and in the website's search box search for "Children Playing in the Sea and Splashing". The paragraph underneath the video has a little additional information about the family.

What is the disgusting element of the video Alan?

I think you may be looking too hard into something that simply isn't there in that.

I shared my old gym photo's from Filton School here on 6th Feb and I think that schools like mine who made it mandatory for us to do the gym in our bare chests like my Flickr photo's showed in the mid 70s, and those that make the taking of showers mandatory for everyone regardless of who they are give rise to enhanced confidence in most cases. Why treat such things as terrible and disgusting, isn't that the way to reinforce negative self image?

Has anyone stopped to think that the reason that Swedes and people in other Scandanavian nations are so relaxed about their bodies is because they do those things in Anna's video from the moment they hit school for the first time. At that age there's nothing wrong with both genders sharing is there.

I was thinking about what Yorkshire Dad said about how even older primary children don't sweat much during PE, and it must be even less for the first school children and their PE lesson didn't look like it would raise much of a sweat to be honest so the effective value of a shower for them seems quite limited but maybe it's just about having a bit of fun for them, or more likely instilling in them good hygiene awareness from a very young age and fostering a healthy attitude to their own and others bodies they can see.

I rather wish I'd been able to do that from the start of school. I would have been in my element and treated it as part of the fun of PE at that age I'm sure.

One thing it was not was disgusting. That is something of an overreaction. I'm sure they were all treated very well.

For any parents or grandparents here, would you be alright about your own first school ones taking PE showers, even mixed, under the age of seven? It would not concern me too much. I agree, there are far more healthy benefits to be had long term I'm sure.

Has anyone stooped to think that the reason that Swedes and people in other Scandanavian nations are so relaxed about their bodies is because they do those things in Anna's video from the moment they hit school for the first time. At that age there's nothing wrong with both genders sharing is there.

I was thinking about what Yorkshire Dad said about how even older primary children don't sweat much during PE, and it must be even less for the first school children and their PE lesson didn't look like it would raise much of a sweat to be honest so the effective value of a shower for them seems quite limited but maybe it's just about having a bit of fun for them, or more likely instilling in them good hygiene awareness from a very young age and fostering a healthy attitude to their own and others bodies they can see.

I rather wish I'd been able to do that from the start of school. I would have been in my element and treated it as part of the fun of PE at that age I'm sure.

One thing it was not was disgusting. That is something of an overreaction. I'm sure they were all treated very well.

For any parents or grandparents here, would you be alright about your own first school ones taking PE showers, even mixed, under the age of seven? It would not concern me too much. I agree, there are far more healthy benefits to be had long term I'm sure.

How can such unabashed young innocence be described as "disgusting". The lens through which some people see the world is quite different to mine.

Anna's clip.

I just saw a group of children looking like they were enjoying themselves really. It's a foreign country, a completely different cultural attitude, and a different time.

The PE lesson looked very relaxed. I noticed they all seemed to be wearing something of their own choice there, a complete mixture, some boys shirtless, others in their t-shirts, some wearing plimsolls, others not. Various colours and types of clothing. No obvious branding! So all were doing their lesson how best they felt comfortable by the look of it. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on this obvious fact actually Alan.

Alan, Your comment yesterday at 1726. The ex-teacher was convicted of indecent assault. Everyone knows that the overwhelming majority of boys who experience some communal nudity at school are not indecently assaulted. Thus it is illogical to conflate nudity with abuse. I can see from the discussion that your views are fixed and will not be changed by comments I or anyone else might make. I will say no more on the subject.
Anna, Thanks for confirming the more relaxed culture in Scandinavia. I agree that it is healthier. As you can see from other comments, those who get very hot and bothered about nudity usually sound cross rather than happy.

Comment by: Anna on 17th April 2024 at 22:22


The film you included contains scenes of full frontal nudity of prepubescent girls. We can only hope that such material doesn't get into the hands of wrong-ungs. This is almost as gross as the ITV programme that has been posted on here, in that case boys being shown in similar circumstances.

There seems to be no respect for children from the directors of such material. Disgusting.

Comment by Geoffrey on 16th April 2024 - **It would be interesting to know whether there are folk in Scandinavia, northern Europe, France and so on, who read this discussion and chuckle at how hot and bothered the British get over nudity.**




Very much so. I'm from Malmo originally, married to an Englishman but grew up in the 1960's there. You are correct about Scandanavian culture. We started young in Sweden and I have a film to give you to show this clearly to understand this. Here we have an example from the late end of the 1970's with a little PE lesson for some of the younger school ones about seven years or so. We see that they all take part together, they even change and shower together. This was common from the earliest start at school, I was familiar to this myself at such the age here. Scandanavian countries have some of the most healthy and happy peoples in the world. I think this is very healthy ways to be. Happy days.

Första klass (1978) - Watch from 22m 36s - 26m 52s for the PE lesson piece.

https://vk.com/video/@public208081991?z=video-208081991_456239022%2Fclub208081991%2Fpl_-208081991_-2

In July last year a very large group of boys at the primary school in Portsmouth that my grandson goes to were seen at the family sports afternoon not wearing something above the waist, in their bare chests. I've no idea if they'd been asked to do so or not but there was absolutely no comment from anyone about it within earshot of me and I thought those that presented like that looked fine and there were lots of phone pictures being taken at this.

Geoffrey. In my opinion, forcing anybody to do something against their will is abuser. In the case of a teacher forcing boys to swim naked, is most definitely an abuse of power. Clearly in the case I mentioned,the judge and jury thought so, too.

If you've had poor experiences at school on this whole subject, had some bad teachers, thought of yourself as having a poor body and lack of ability at anything physical, then I can understand why this would colour anyone's judgement quite significantly.

I do agree with you Geoffrey that neither abuse nor sex should automatically be associated with regular situations such as those that get described here surrounding a lack of clothing to whatever degree through a physical education class of some sort.

Alan, You've made my point for me by continuously linking nudity to abuse as if they were the same, when we all know they're not.

Comment by: Geoffrey on 16th April 2024 at 20:13


...."It would be interesting to know whether there are folk in Scandinavia, northern Europe, France and so on, who read this discussion and chuckle at how hot and bothered the British get over nudity."

Geoffrey there is a world of difference between those adults who CHOOSE to adopt a naturist lifestyle (though, there again, I don't like the way so many of them force their own offspring into it), and enjoy doing everything in the raw, and FORCING schoolchildren into it.

Nude swimming should never have been tolerated in the second half of the twentieth century, and if you read the evidence in chief on the Royal Liberty case, you will see that forced nude swimming in school was still going on in the 1990s and early 2000s, though the man who instigated it, was quite rightly sent to prison initially. I hope nobody would not be "chuckling" about that.

I still find it amazing that in the 1970s parents,other teachers, educationalists or even MPs (when they are working that is, which isn't often) were not questioning this very suspect, and certainly outdated practice.

I'd like to yak about my own thoughts and feelings from memories of school PE where the shirtless issue is concerned and how it was used.

Our secondary school actually had a boys vests for gym uniform. No t-shirts were allowed, only vests.

Our school, the timeframe I'm speaking of here is early eighties, had a couple of teachers who used the removal of our vests as a disciplinary measure and I was on the receiving end of this a number of times. When I say disciplinary measure I don't really mean in a naughty way but for lack of performance as determined by a given PE teacher in most instances.

Certain boys in our PE could find themselves the only ones in PE with no vest on sometimes. If our PE teacher told you to take your vest off in PE he would actually take it from you, roll it up and stick it in a bag and zip it up and only give it back when we returned to the changing rooms.

If you got picked on and had to hand your PE vest over it was often followed by an instruction to lap the gym a couple of times as fast as possible, or climb a rope, or the favourite which happened to me a number of times in my youth was being made to hang off the wall frame bars and raise my legs up five times in quick succession and after doing this remain hanging until it was no longer possible to stay there under the body weight. This often happened when being accused of lack of effort as decided by the teacher.

The amount of times I was in a whole class without any vests on during PE was quite rare actually. Often it was the skins and shirts when most boys in PE were not wearing tops and we were left to choose the teams and who was going to be shirtless in those situations.

I knew full well that two of my teachers were using the ability they had to remove our vests and hand them over to them as a form of humiliating punishment in their own minds.

Now I was never shy about being shirtless in a PE lesson if I was told to be when we did the skins and shirts games or on those rarer whole class situations but I did feel differently about it when I spent some lessons standing out alone like that among the others. Standing out by yourself makes you instinctively insecure for certain.

Comment by: Zack on 16th April 2024 at 20:52
Naked swims at school.
Can you just imagine in such a swim class being the one big fat overweight boy among a set of fitter slimmer and regular shaped boys. That would be so unkind wouldn't it.




Not necessarily so, not if he also had a big willy to go with it.

Allow me one juvenile comment please. Actually I agree, but not all fat kids are automatically unhappy being big and different.

Naked swims at school.

Can you just imagine in such a swim class being the one big fat overweight boy among a set of fitter slimmer and regular shaped boys. That would be so unkind wouldn't it.