Burnley Grammar School

John, what exactly did the girls do or say to those boys that you describe as "go in for the kill" and "lot of flack from girls in PE and were teased about their bodies?" Were these boys overweight or had anything that set them apart and made them vulnerable to mockery? What did the girls wear? How old were the pupils when PE was mixed?

Susan F, you said leotards were discontinued because it was unpopular with the girls when they were around boys.
What did the girls wear instead at that point?
Were the boys who asked to wear shirts allowed to do so?

Jane, you said "having boys around us was a distraction for us girls in PE". How did the other girls react to the boys' predicament?
You also said "Our own gym PE kit was horrible clingy black leotards until we got a bit older." So your PE kit changed at a certain point, what was it changed to?
Did the boys' PE kit also change at that point? Were they allowed to wear shirts then?
For clarity, could you specify the ages of the pupils?

andy. someone here has already reported someone to their real work place. that 1 stopped posting after. you remember? you shocked that people use fake names?

Some gentlemen on here have been concerned about the gender double standard working against them as boys and in our favour as girls so I'd like to redress that a small way.

When I began my school life in the infants first school in 1971 and we had to do our PE lessons together, all the boys as well as all the girls like me had to do it, inside, with nothing to wear on top at all, or on our feet. Boys and girls wore exactly the same little set of light green shorts for PE and this was always how everyone at my infants school did PE for all three years I was there from just after my fifth birthday until just after my eighth. There was not a bit of difference there how we were treated, girls were expected to accept being topless for PE just as the boys are.

Even at that very young often unquestioning age I was thinking isn't this only what boys are meant to do.

Only when I finally reached the nearby primary school at the age of eight did I finally get to wear a top for PE, just any old random t-shirt was allowed, but I remember the boys carried on without t-shirts and remained without all the way through for PE indoors that we did alongside them up to almost age twelve. It was obviously compulsory for them to continue that way, while we picked any t-shirt we wanted and liked from home.

I believe the comprehensive school that many of us went on to attend also leant heavily into the bare chest PE ethic for boys there too in gym so it seems that some of the boys I shared my schooldays with might have spent their whole school life doing PE, at least most of it indoors, never actually being able. allowed or expected to put a top of any type on.

At comprehensive school all girls did have to take a communal PE shower entirely nude the same as boys right up until we drew near to the end of our fifth form year, so we matched the boys on that there too, and most of us despised the ritual which I finally saw the back of in the spring of 1982. It could be quite a ghastly experience for many.

Comment by: Darren G on 24th April 2025

I hate anything like this Darren G. No one ever really gave a damn about how some boys might feel when being forced into accepting such a situation, which they could do nothing about. Most boys, I expect, would have said nothing, becoming resigned to it at that young age, as they’d already be bombarded by everything being new and strange while trying to get used to life in their new school. She would have interpreted this as acceptance to her being there. Well how wrong she was, though she wouldn't care, as most boys would have wished they could have told her to clear off. I blame the head teacher (male or female?) for a blatant disregard for the boys and a total lack of understanding. As usual, as long as the girls are not compromised, everything’s okay isn’t it. What an awful situation, and a horrible woman, who I expect enjoyed telling everybody what she did.

I so often resented the many double standards I found when I was growing up. I never thought girls were entitled to more privacy than me, and I would have hated this gym teacher being around us in there at that age. You like to think you’re just starting to grow up around 11, and certainly some boys are more developed than others by that age and you really should be deserving of some respect. But I wouldn’t be surprised if this still happened somewhere today.

I’ll tell of something that happened when we were all around 13 years old in our 2nd year, which some might find amusing, we boys didn’t…for long. I’ve mentioned before how the girl’s gym teacher would frequently walk right through our boys’ changing room at secondary school, no matter what state of undress we were in. She had no need to do this as the girls’ door was just a few metres away, so it was a deliberate decision of choice on her part and I'm sure she thought of it as a little perk. We didn’t routinely share gym lessons with the girls, and at this particular time we boys had a music lesson which was followed by gym, so we’d all go to our changing room at the end of music where we’d often hear the shower water still going and the girls’ voices, as the shower block was in the middle with our separate changing rooms on either side of it. We’d then have to get changed for our gym lesson, and when the girls were ready, they’d go across for their music lesson. We’d later all meet up again for the next period which I think was Geography.

This situation would alternate each week, so sometimes we’d be in the shower when the girls came to change for gym on their side, and on one such occasion, when we’d met up again for geography, a few of the girls began to tell us that they’d just been watching us in the showers, through the keyhole on their side! They were able to give details of how we looked which I remember finding a bit embarrassing as they were so accurate. They said who was more developed than others which was also true. What's more, their very same gym teacher who liked to walk through our room didn’t mind them watching us in the shower, and just smiled and left them to it.

So, on hearing this, we boys thought we’d have to get our own back. When the next opportunity came the following week, after arriving from music, we decided to forego our usual respect for the girls privacy, and take turns to check out our girl classmates just as they had us. I know we all found it just as interesting as they did, but there was one big difference: in walked our gym teacher and caught us. He went berserk, shouting at the top of his voice to get changed. When we’d done so, he stamped in wielding a size 11 plimsoll in hand, selected a group of us to touch our toes in line, and proceeded to give each of us six of the best…obviously waiting until only the thin white cotton of our gym shorts was between his slipper and our skin. Now then, how’s that for a representation of double standards, and what a contrast to how the girls were dealt with on the other side of the shower block. From that moment onwards we often thought the girls continued to watch us whenever they wanted, and we couldn’t do anything about it as our volatile gym teacher never let us miss showering.

Comment by: Mark on 24th April 2025 at 13:03




".....I thought you might have picked him up on this 'forced bare chest rule' line here, where boys have to go shirtless if they come with the wrong style PE shirt. You're mellowing Alan!....."

I think it is perfectly acceptable if the lad brings the wrong kit - assuming - and I am sure it is - made clear what is worn, when, then the teacher is within his rights to inflict that punishment, but if I were one of those lads I would make sure I DID follow the guidelines. I think Simon's classes have little to complain about. Yes you have to take the uniform shirt off, but you can easily turn your back while you do it, and put the P.E. one on, and vice versa, and he doesn't force them to shower, so he is not a prowler. What is there not to like?. If you want me to add a but - if the lad brings the wrong shirt because his mum forgot to wash it, that is tough on the lad. I would do the washing myself. I like down to earth teachers like him, and I sincerely hope most lads have teachers like him who know it is now a quarter of the way through the 21st century, and the boys are not in borstal, and are not forced into things they don't like. Free and easy, that's my style. I could have coped with Simon's school.


Comment by: Nick on 24th April 2025 at 13:56


"...The worst thing you can do to those of school age is to wrap them up in cotton wool and try to protect them from largely imaginary problems.

Why did boys at school excitedly go swimming but then became all coy when the PE lesson required they look much the same? I see that conundrum has been mentioned previously here......"

That's right, Nick - we've got to get them toughened up to go up the chimneys or face the press gangs who will be forcing them to take the King's shilling, haven't we?. Well, no we haven't. Clearly you were never in a school where bullying was on the timetable every day, and aided and abetted by a teacher who was as cracked as the pupils, with a prurient interest in other people's anatomy.

This swimming thing. I can only explain my feelings about it. When you are in water it is like a psychological blanket covering you up, you (or I) would get out and in and back to the changing cubicles as quickly as possible. There is a great deal of difference between that and being on dry land wearing only shorts (especially when you are climbing up ropes or doing exercises with a partner), with teachers of other subjects walking through the gym as a short cut to wherever they are going. It must be even worse in a mixed school.

The year 1968 has been mentioned on here and that was a year I was at a privately run boarding school in Kent with 400 male pupils, and was a fourteen year old that particular year. I will confess that these were not the most wonderful years of my life but I wouldn't say I had a bad time either.

If you were sensitive or shy you had to find ways to try and overcome it.

If you wish to know what a lack of privacy is like you should have been a full time boarder at school like I was after the age of eleven. The kind of day school secondary issues are minor in comparison I would think.

Let me explain. I had to share a dormitory room with nine other boys at school, and sometimes not all of us got on and they would switch someone around with another group. We were not allowed to just go to bed in our underwear and had to put on a proper set of pyjamas to go to bed sleep in. Before bed we all had a mad rush into the bathrooms to do what needed to be done. Lights out was always a set time and silence was expected once that happened.

Each morning the first thing everyone had to do was get out of the pyjamas, grab a towel and go off to the communal showers, big enough for 50 boys to easily use at the same time in our part of school in our year group age. Each morning was exactly the same set routine without fail. There was absolutely no privacy available or expected to be. We were expected to strip naked, get wet through and start washing properly and quietly with each other, seven days a week. If PE was in the morning we still had to do that and would have a second shower of the day before lunchtime arrived. We stayed clean at least! You were not expected to have any reservations about your own nudity or that of others.

Someone has mentioned sixth former looking over younger ones in school. We had prefects doing the same in our school. They could also have the privilege of a bath in the mornings and there were two baths available. It was not unusual to have a prefect in the mornings sitting in his bath giving out instructions and orders while everyone else was showering and coming and going. Prefect could indeed be worse than the teaching staff if you got a bad one, and one or two did seem to over enjoy some of their bestowed authority they were given. Quite unfairly I thought, in our school they were even allowed to administer a slipper to the body of anyone stepping out of line as they saw it. This was abused a lot, although even prefects were liable to corporal punishment if they fell short. One was caned at our school for slippering too many boys for fun. That's how it was then. Hierarchy and control, knowing your place in the order of things. Many of us had an inclination to break free of such strictures.

PE was three days a week and 90 minutes long and some of it could be quite brutally rough and intense even as very young eleven and twelve year olds.

There were no shirts worn in the gymnasium. Your bare chest was your gym uniform. Only the teacher wore his PE vest. I think it was a mixture of plimsolls without socks and nothing on the feet, mostly nothing I think. Our shorts were plain black. Some people say they had to remove underwear, we did not, we kept ours on, but I suppose if anyone wished to remove it they could have done so. That would never have occurred to me to take my pants off and only wear the shorts.

In our PE all of us were expected to reach quite high standards of ability and if we did not we got extra tuition sometimes. We were not allowed to have a can't do attitude to anything, however daunting it may have seemed. It's fair to say we could be run ragged at times. Even if we didn't like doing something we still had to pretend we did and put in the effort. Not putting in effort could result in getting a strap wrapped across your legs or bottom, so you tended to stay focussed in fear the belt or a plimsoll shoe would come out and find its way at you from a teacher.

Anything a teacher said you acted upon immediately without answering back. So it's fair to say that, especially when we were younger, we were all very subservient.

I've just noticed that Simon has said he would not ever send someone outside shirtless for PE unless they chose to in summer term. Well in 1968 at my boarding school it was very different indeed. When we all assembled for the weekly cross country in PE none of us had shirts on. Obviously outside for football, rugby and such like we wore our shirt colours but not for cross country, that was classed just like the gymnasium, and was deemed a real test of our stamina, so all of us ran outside shirtless in any weather at any given time on the calendar. The older we got the longer we were expected to run, ending up at something like 10 to 12 miles by sixteen. Cross country running around 1968 at the age of fourteen was the absolute beast of PE to me which took every ounce of effort and energy out of you on the longer runs on bad days when we were absolute wrecks by the end of it. We would finish up and be laying on our backs too tired to get back up off the school sports field. I remember weak buckling legs, stomach stitch and often still feeling cold after many miles of it, breath puffing out clouds into the air. We then had to race to the showers and be into another lesson within short order sometimes, still aching and feeling quite worn out, but still expected to concentrate and not complain in the next subject.

Annually our parents were invited to our sports extravaganza as they called it, where the whole school took part, it was a sports day by another name. We all stood to attention on the school field in front of our parents, in our school years, every single one of us was shirtless for that event and we lined up in various formations before doing some school exercises in unison by school age, and then a run past the parents before getting on with the extravaganza, which involved a lot of running and outdoors gymnastic prowess being displayed, some between older and younger boys, the only time we did such things out of our age groups. One year the weather was bad so it was called off, they didn't mind us getting wet but didn't want our parents to, or even have to sit under a brolly to watch us. Thinking we'd got off it for that year they went and rearranged it a fortnight later and sent the invites back out again.

The fitter the school made me get and the more stamina it gave me, the more I wanted to get even fitter and gain more stamina. The bashfulness was knocked out of even the most sensitive ones. So in that sense it worked.

The worst thing you can do to those of school age is to wrap them up in cotton wool and try to protect them from largely imaginary problems.

Why did boys at school excitedly go swimming but then became all coy when the PE lesson required they look much the same? I see that conundrum has been mentioned previously here.

I've never understood why it should be a problem for a group of boys all about the same age mucking in together in a group shower and think it's perfectly reasonable to be told to do so, even if that does affect the sensibilities of those on the shy self conscious end of the spectrum. The same applies to shirts coming off during PE.

Comment by: Alan on 24th April 2025 at 06:02
'Welcome Simon. It is really good to hear from a P.E. teacher. Your school's policies seem totally acceptable.'

Comment by: Simon W on 23rd April 2025 at 21:25
'If anyone does not come to PE (indoors gym) with the accepted footwear then it's bare feet, and if an incorrect PE top is worn then it's no top.'


I thought you might have picked him up on this 'forced bare chest rule' line here, where boys have to go shirtless if they come with the wrong style PE shirt. You're mellowing Alan!

If you know what you are meant to bring and you don't do so and that's the end result then I think it's fair, if you end up the one and only boy in PE shirtless and don't like it, do not blame the teacher blame yourself, even if you could probably still wear an incorrect top and make little difference. Yes, I think it's very fair too.

I think a lot of schools are like this nowadays, they have all the facilities like we used to have but nobody uses them. It made me consider how many boys there might be who would secretly love to shower after PE lessons, especially if very sweaty but feel they can't suddenly be the only one doing so because that would look weird to the others. We've heard a lot about boys, and some girls, who didn't want to shower at school, that's most of us to be fair, but what about those out there who didn't mind or actually wanted to, they existed too, and in this day and age at school's such as the one Simon describes feel they simply can't because nobody else does.

Interesting that he suggests there is some shower use after school, but then those who do after school sports are the keen and active sporty types who are motivated so perhaps not so unexpected some might be up for a quick shower in those situations which are probably more relaxed than in the school day itself.

Comment by: Simon W on 23rd April 2025 at 21:25



Welcome Simon. It is really good to hear from a P.E. teacher who is neither a control, freak or a voyeur, and seems a genuinely modern and sympathetic teacher. I hope there are many more like you, and I hope you will contribute as often as you want to. Your school's policies seem totally acceptable.


Comment by: Yours Truly on 23rd April 2025 at 17:33



Hi YT I broadly agree with you. There have been some terrible governments of BOTH parties (and the Lib Dems in 2010, who proved they were just as bad), but, honestly, has there ever been one as bad as this one?. It took their leader FOUR years and a Supreme Court ruling to understand what a woman is, and where I do disagree with you is that in the current instance, ministers are not appointed by rank or birth, on the contrary they are appointed because they tick one of the "minority" boxes. I won't elaborate further. You can see unemployment rising every day - one or two of my larger customers are cutting back on staff, and they cite the rise in NIC and the new employment laws as the reason. Previous governemts have had youth training schemes - this one (and the last one) just keep them cooped up in school.

The last really great PM that I have read of was Harold Wilson (Labour) who told America where to go when their then President (Johnson) wanted us to get involved in the Vietnam war. That was in 1968. That took grit, since we are so often subservient to the USA. He really did put his own country first, as they all should, but don't. I am sure he would have sacked any poor performers in his cabinet

Too damned bad in my senior school if you didn't like going shirtless and taking your top off, a typical mid 1970s northern English state run comprehensive school with classic type stereotypical PE teachers. We boys at our school had to share the PE gym with the girls for my first two years there and none of the boys wore a top in that gym with those girls among us.
What I can recall is how girls can sense exactly who the shy or worried boys are in such situations and go in for the kill. There were two boys in PE who took a lot of flack from girls in PE and were teased about their bodies and none of us could just go grab a top, stick it on and shut some of these girls up once they got going somtimes. This often happened as we all waited outside gym for our teacher while unsupervised but ready in our gym attire.

I also had a male sod of a gym teacher when I was 15 who liked to face up to boys his own size by that age and eyeball them with attitude while treading on our bare toes hard with his training shoe which I was a victim of first hand and it hurt like hell the way this sod perfected his accidentally on purpose foot crushing technique on the floor of the gym.

The same man was a shower sadist who enjoyed giving us a whole class cold shower after PE if even a couple of class had misbehaved during PE.

Comment by: Matthew on 26th October 2015 at 09:20
I don't believe that a female teacher would be supervising naked boys in a secondary school.



Answering a very old post here I know, but they did in mine Matthew. First years in my secondary school often had gym taken by a female PE teacher who had full entry into our changing room which had a group showers area we used and she was close by when we did this, and that for me was in 1982/3. She was quite a tomboy kind of looking teacher with a short haircut but was very much a female and must have seen us all stripped off. Our gym lessons with her, just like later with the men were mostly a shorts only kit with no t-shirts on or shoes and socks. We grew up fast 42 tears ago and got used to it quite quickly. Both my parents knew this arrangement but when I first told my father he thought it was funny and laughed about it.

80% of our class would have wanted flat feet if that got them a permanent pass for PE at school Gary! But there was some quite enjoyable PE so I wouldn't have wished for flat feet, and I most certainly wouldn't have wanted anyone poking any part of me, my feet or private parts. Those kind of things that swirl the school are like Chinese whispers I think. Someone says something and what is it they say, a lie can be halfway round the world before the truth has got it's boots on or something like that.

Hello.

I teach physical education at a school in Maidenhead for school years 7 to 11 (that's ages eleven to sixteen).

There is a fully specific PE kit required to be brought into class dependant on the activity involved. If anyone does not come to PE (indoors gym) with the accepted footwear then it's bare feet, and if an incorrect PE top is worn then it's no top. This keeps kit issues down to a minimum and ensures most bring the correct items when they should.

Outside, incorrect kit results in a detention for repeat offenders. We do not force bare feet outside or no tops, but in summer term boys are free to take PE in that way if they wish and it is appropriate to the activity. A few do this with permission.

Sometimes I do agree that the rules around PE kit are overly stringent but I only uphold the rules I do not make them. I think there's a reasonable case to be made for simplicity and I'm sure many boys would enjoy that too.

Of course everyone is without tops in the changing room when moving from school uniform to PE kit, that is unavoidable.

My own school physical education was broadly similar to many on here, but I think the teaching standard is far higher today. Our school has full working order showers in all the changing rooms but they lay largely idle, our school does not operate compulsion to use them. I would feel unsure being like the PE teachers who taught me in making an absolute demand that they must be used, but anyone who wanted to would be free and able to do so. They are sometimes used with after school sport activity by some pupils though.

This is a very interesting discussion.

There's been a question about school urban legends from Terry after the funny little anecdote that came from YT. Well I can think of quite a few from schooldays but as this is a PE based discussion I'll keep it to topic.

All the boys in our year were unexpectedly told late one morning that we had to assemble after lunch in our school sports hall. Well that set the rumour mill going like wildfire I remember as there had been this unprovable story going round that boys had to turn out there for a foreskin check with the school nurse and a male PE teacher present, thought's of us all dropping our trousers and being made to pull our foreskins back passed through the mind and the sheer awfulness of doing that. It was obviously rubbish, an urban school legend but we really believed it was a genuine possibility, or some of us did.

There was another along similar lines that boys had to get their feet checked out with the school nurse and PE teachers and anyone discovered with flat feet would be exempt from PE. Not so bad as the willy one but equally ridiculous when you think about it, but again, some believed this, and would wish it were true if it got them off PE, but that was never going to happen.

Perhaps not so much an urban legend but there was the one rumour that got going that our school couldn't afford to run two separate girls and boys PE blocks and that we would all have to share, even mixed showers. It's amazing what an average 13 year old will believe at times, and sounds amusing now because it all this stuff really worried a few people even though it was just nonsense.

There was another that may have been true, I don't know, and it was about a boy in our year who had got three girls pregnant before the age of 15 and all had to have a termination. This was interesting and possible because the lad in question bragged about promiscuity and losing his virginity at the age of 12, and three girls who he hung out with all ended up having a prolonged spell off school at one point which fired up the rumour mill and suspicions. Nobody ever found out whether any of it was true, if so it was brushed under the carpet very effectively to save the school any terrible publicity.


YT you mentioned the school medical upsetting you. I had one in first school where I kept my underpants and vest on and remember bursting into tears during it. I had another when I began at secondary school which took place in matron's office and I was down to just my pants and nothing else at all, had a quick stand up check over and then had to sit in the chair in just my pants answering some questions before being allowed to leave. I remember there were some waiting boys outside the door for their turn in just their pants ready to be called in. Very awkward!

Ross, in my middle school they were completely obsessed with going barefoot for activities, PE was done that way always in the school hall and alos on the grass outside in the good weather, so was something they called M & M (Music and movement). Then switching to comprehensive school the obsession went from that to bare chests for PE instead, mainly the school gymnasium but not exclusively so.

It was rare at either school for both 'bares' to combine, no footwear and no shirts, but did happen a handful of times in middle, and a bit more in comprehensive, where a PE teacher we had was fond of what he deemed Brazilian style football, the type they played on the beach I think, and we sometimes played football in gym barefoot and bare chest.

I think it was Yours Truly who mentioned a feeling of vulnerability in PE. I get that. You did feel a bit vulnerable doing PE in this manner, without a top on, or even without footwear but with a top.

I was at a middle school that had a communal shower installed in the boys changing room, but not the girls. We didn't have to use them after every PE lesson, they were only compulsory when our teacher decided they were, and for boys that was if we went outside and played football in the autumn or winter. Sometimes if we were outside in summer and it was blazing hot we had to do the same, but it was unusual, we might have got asked to take maybe 10 showers a year at middle school, nobody ever brought a towel so if we took one we dried off with paper towels from the dispenser in the changing room which were more than good enough. If our teacher was a woman then she would stand at the door pretending not to look at us but we knew she must have seen something. You couldn't wrap a paper towel around your waist unfortunately!

Comprehensive school was bare chests right from the off, very first lesson there, it must have been my third day at the school, then straight into the showers with a bunch of unknowns. Talk about a getting to know you session within a couple of days of meeting new people. The term 'zero tolerance' wasn't in use in the early eighties but there was zero tolerance for anyone thinking about kicking up a stink about doing PE in a bare chest, they made that very clear to us at school in PE, and even clearer that there would be no tolerating those who thought they might miss out the shower part of PE lessons. I remember seeing some boys getting a real dressing down from PE teachers for trying not to shower, real shouting stuff and physical prodding to get them in to do it. It wasn't exactly subtle at times. You could tell some teachers liked that style of authority while it was obviously more difficult for others to be like that if they needed to be.

I stayed on for sixth form but dropped out after a year and got a job instead. You were supposed to do PE in my sixth form at least once a week, I remember it was Wednesday afternoons, but I never showed up once for any of them. I think some other sixth form boys also gave PE a miss too, but most just did it, and it was much the same kit as before as far as I knew, one of my friends Paul was quite sporty and happily continued PE in sixth form and I hung outside the changing room waiting for him one time and he came back off PE in trainers, shorts and a bare chest from the gym with about half a dozen others. The teacher knew I was meant to be a part of it but as it was sixth form wasn't really bothered and just rolled his eyes and tutted. Officially I was meant to be there but unofficially he was letting it pass, and did so for the whole year. I walked in and waited for my mate Paul and they all took the showers, the full soapy washdown like we did pre-sixth form in first to fifth years.

PE and school changing rooms remind me of many things, of boys who were sporty show offs and boys who were unsporty very quiet and timid.

Hi Frank,

I don't know if you know this but there is a US bar chain called Hooters. It is exactly what it sounds like, with the all-female staff made to wear the corporate uniform of skimpy vests and tight shorts. Try and guess the clientelle. I don't have children but I wouldn't be okay with a daughter or niece of mine working there. And I wouldn't have been okay with my son working in the place you describe. That bar manager sounds like a covert fetishist.

But is it any different from shirtless PE for boys? Why is there this assumption that children can just be stripped?


Hi Gerald,

I can see the logic of shorts-only kit for boys on grounds of cost reduction. We had a fairly extensive PE kit for indoors and out which placed a strain on our parents. Really I didn't and can't see why PE kit can't be any affordable t-shirt and shorts like we had at primary school. My school used to have the rule that while uniform was absolutely compulsory - and you got hammered for any infraction - the school blazer was optional. This was a well-intentioned move to reduce the financial burden on struggling parents in a poor neighbourhood. Our incoming headmaster changed that rule. No, no, no, that just wouldn't do, and from the following term blazers were compulsory for both genders.

Also, as Danny C once said, it's less stuff to forget. Just a pair of shorts and a towel, as another recent poster said. Maybe that is the same reason why many girls in my time were happy to do indoor PE barefoot, it was just less clutter and less to forget.

Two things only: girls should be held to the same standard. With tops, obviously. After all the same discipline will benefit them as much as their male cohorts. And it should be voluntary. No pupil of either gender should be forced to dress in a way they find humiliating.

Hi Alan,

If you ask me the UK has been gradually declining since the end of World War One when we were forced off the gold standard. It has been going on way longer than any of our lifetimes. Maggie Thatcher's asset-stripping pirate government was really only the coup de grace and we nowadays live in the rattling corpse. People have always been promoted in the UK for what they were rather than what they were capable of. It's called the aristocracy and since they own all the land they can't be got rid of.

Always interesting reading here. Looking back I saw a comment from a PE teacher describing the kit they mandated which was barefoot l, shirtless and shorts only.
This is pretty much the full kit I wore throughout middle and high school. Always shirtless, barefoot with navy shorts.

Comment by: Frank on 22nd April 2025 at 21:21

I hope your son took your advice, Frank. It might not have been a gay bar, but I bet, sure as hell, the young manager was.

What is worrying is that with Rachel From Accounts tanking the economy, and the hospitality sector is especially badly hit, such "requests" might become compulsory rather than voluntary. Sadly too many people are promoted because of WHAT they are, rather than what they can do. This manager sounds as if he should have been a P.E. teacher!

Frank when I was younger I worked in a hotel bar for about four months a few nights a week just to get a bit extra that I wanted. If anyone there had suggested to me that I remove my clothing to place my torso on display for the punters and guests there I think I would have laughed in their face, and if they looked like they were being serious I would have quit. Nowadays that would constitute harrassment, although what adults choose to do is up to them, it's not school is it where we had no choice but to follow orders.

It would be good to hear again from the likes of YorkshireDad, Greg2 and DannyC who has had a couple of mentions recently, also any other genuine PE teachers out there or ones who have been here before and gone quiet.

I've got four grown up sons who all went to secondary school in the 1970's and 1980's, all born within less than 5 years of each other, the eldest twin boys and two others only slightly younger. They were all at the same school together at one point in time.

I remember me and their mother having a discussion about the cost of all the school clothing we had to buy at the time and the need to keep replacing it as they all grew out of things. I had a similar discussion with their PE teachers at open night and his suggestion to me was to cut down my costs he'd allow them to do PE at school shirtless and I had no objection to that in the least. Their teachers had to us that they discarded tops a lot anyway for PE so we shouldn't worry too much about constantly buying fresh clothing and bigger vests etc, or even trainers.

Pupils were not allowed to come to open night with their parents back then so the boys weren't listening in to this conversation.

Clearly it cuts down costs, especially for bigger families with a lot of male children at school at the same time if less uniform is needed, and PE offered up that opportunity and their PE teachers at the time recognised this and took many of their classes in bare feet and bare tops.

My own four sons had differing attitudes to this, two were carefree and easy going, that was the twins but the two younger ones struggled with PE at school, one especially disliked the need to shower I seem to remember and didn't like being shirtless, something we used to talk about and I made the same case to all of them all those years ago about how much more efficient it was, no washing for their mother and no constant extra costs on growing bodies for me, when money was tight for a hard working family man raising his children.

One or two of the grandchildren I now have are made to take far too much into school nowadays, including for PE. The school should supply shin pads if they want them on, I wasn't expected to bring in a pair of my own flannels for cricket when I was at school, and when I did our school gym I rather enjoyed the freedom of movement that removing my PE vest gave me when I had the chance.

Zak you said something that I'm certain someone else on here once pointed out too;

'One little observation I always used to notice on days we did that at school, and it was when we were all standing around listening to our PE teacher instructions the boys who were bare chested as the skins would stand and listen with arms folded and the boys who were the shirts would stand hands on hips or beside them.'


Well this reminded me of some clips once put on here from a school doing outside PE shirtless, and I found what I was thinking of just to try and help you confirm what you were saying. It's a school in 1980 doing shirtless PE. I do think there is a bit of what you are saying within this clip, although perhaps not as much as I initially thought, but there are other clips from other years much the same on this person's archive YT channel, which I'm sure has been mentioned before otherwise I wouldn't have vaguely recalled it. I think this is quite an interesting observation in shirtless PE body language from boys just waiting about not doing much. It looks like there is some self conscious body language here for sure, even more so with a camera being pointed at them which would magnify the feelings I'm sure.

https://youtu.be/uyzO5cA14v8?feature=shared&t=110

Comment by: Callum on 21st April 2025 at 03:10
Quote - "So my father owned a quite old fashioned hardware store in our High Street in Banbury, now run by another family member nowadays. In the mid 90's while still at school he used to employ me and pay me to do a Saturday job in the business and a couple of other boys I was at school with, mainly because he knew he could trust us. The shop was an old building, since renovated a bit more inside, but was very hot and stuffy in summer with no aircon and even with the windows open could be like this on still, humid days. I remember how I used to actually work in the back part of the shop mending small things and bikes with my shirt off many times over my first summer doing a Saturday job, I was just 15. I even used to think nothing of serving on the front desk shirtless too and nothing was said about it. One of the other Saturday boys with me did this too sometimes, feeling brave because I did so and was the owners son, so my voluntary shirtless was infectious and made him do it too. The summer I started doing the Saturday job was very hot and long, that was in 1995, and we got really quite used to it. I never felt self conscious doing this and meeting lots of people face to face. I got to a point where I no longer noticed I was working there shirtless at all. What's weird about that is I was never embarrassed at the time, but think back now and can't quite believe I did a Saturday job in the family business meeting public and kept my shirt right off for hours on end for weeks on end on non school days. I'm a touch embarrassed now though for some reason!"





Hello Callum. Just repeating that part of what you wrote above to answer you.

You have nothing to feel embarrassed about. You were working in your own parents business under their guidance and watchful eye so what you did was fine and I commend your confidence. It would have been a bit different if you'd been working the local Woollies at the time, or someone in another shop who was normal employer had asked you to do that. But in your case no problem at all for a young man to do this, even as a minor.

When my son was 18 he took a job in a local bar on Friday and Saturday nights serving and collecting glasses. The bar employed a few quite young people, and had a young bar manager too who I though was a bit immature for his age when I met him, goodness knows how he got the job. Well the bar manager began pressuring three or four of the young lads, including my lad at the time, to partake in a shirtless Friday bar hour to bring in more custom. All they would wear was a bow tie and nothing else above the waist, along with jet black trousers. But this young bar manager wasn't going to do likewise and follow through for himself on his own suggestion. I thought the whole thing was a bit tacky to say the least and my son was pressured into doing it a couple of times and although he was no longer an underage minor I told him he was best to take his money and get the hell out of the place after I saw a photo turn up on social media of him in the bar. Would you believe this was actually under the Mitchell's and Butler's chain back in 2006 where this manager was pressuring young male staff there to work for an hour a night with bared chests. This was a normal family bar, not even a gay bar, where you might not be so surprised by such a thing.

Hi Terry,

'That could be an urban school legend Yours Truly couldn't it. Who knows?'

I think it probably was true. Because it's the kind of thing that is just too trivial for anybody to go to the trouble of making up.

As re Stevens' posts, I would have been mortified if my teacher had drawn my attention - and everybody else's - to my personal situation. Even our tyrannical senior PE teacher never showed the faintest interest in that sort of thing, so, credit where it's due. That does sound unlikely, I'll admit. I really can't see why a random erection should even be an issue in a single-sex class (ie, not like what Danny C was subjected to) But if anything it's an argument that boys should be allowed underwear in PE rather than not.

I can't remember if it was on this forum or another where I read it, but I can remember once reading of boys' school medical exams. The boys queued up in just their underpants and entered the room two at a time where the nurse supervising them ordered them to lose the underwear. One boy was unfortunate enough to be sporting a situation and received the sharp end of the nurse's tongue along with the order to face the wall with his hands on his head until said situation had abated. I have no idea if that is a true story or not but I know from my own life experience that boys in particular are treated callously.

I don't remember any erectile fears in the school showers, probably because I was too scared/ embarrassed/ humiliated even to get one. The only personal emergency I can recall in that area was aged six in a school medical in front of two women healthcare professionals who couldn't have looked more bored.

If I ever sound like an amateur psychologist it's only because I'm trying to figure out my own stuff. Not to be anybody else's pedagogue.

'Going back to the start with your story YT, I suppose if a lad walks out the showers boldly sporting a full erection then possibly someone might mention it! But didn't most of us soon wrap towels around us anyway'


Did we? I didn't. Our senior PE teacher was far more frightening than any sense of humiliation so you left your pants on the bench with the rest of your clothes and any vulnerable feelings you were too timid to venture and you got on with it. I can remember the odd boy making his way there with a towel wrapped around him, but it seemed utterly pointless to me given that every last vestige of personal pride and self-respect had already been stripped from us. I always went in with bare balls, given that we had no choice about personal dignity, and this despite being probably the shyest boy in my year. There was nothing left to save.

'The story you mention means the teacher must have forced the boy to keep his arms by his side and keep everything on view.'

I think that was the gist of the story. But even if the boy had his hands clasped over his unmentionables the rest of the class would still have got the message just as succinctly. I can easily imagine a trainee teacher being that callous, simply because he was too young and immature himself to have yet evolved any instinct for empathy. What were you up to at twenty-three?

I don't know about abuse but it was definitely bullying. It's not the way to treat an eleven-year-old boy, I know that.

I can remember the Monday of my second week in secondary school, which was the occasion of my very first Games lesson, out on the fields, playing football. We didn't even have an actual teacher, rather two sixth-form boys who my school still made to do PE and enlisted as auxiliary PE staff. They were exactly as considerate and professional as you would assume any two sixteen-year-old boys to be. Ie, not at all. I can still remember their casual contempt. It was one of the lowest points of my life.

I can remember urban myths. There was Towel Lady. I actually saw the incident to which I have previously referred confirmed on Friends Reunited many years after hearing it.


I can remember other boys with towels wrapped round them, but that just seemed futile given that every iota of personal dignity was stripped from us in the first place. Even though I was one of the shyest kids in the year I always went in balls-naked because there was no escape from it.

'I couldn't agree more on your 'rite of passage' comment about school showers YT. I think many feel this way. There was much more to it than washing, it was about establishing a culture of some sort.'

This is what I have concluded. it's interesting to discover I am not the only man who thinks this.

I do go on, don't I? I suppose it's because I need to get this all, out. Thank you for reading and I shall respect your opinions.

Comment by: Christine Sanderson on 21st April 2025 at 23:03



Christine, forgive me if I sometimes come across as a trifle brusque, but my own experiences, and that of some of my schoolmates, two in particular, makes me very passionate about the abuse, physical or verbal, of school students, which still sadly pertain. If I were made Secretary of State For Education today, my first act would be to ensure that all school inspections would be carried out without prior warning, be extremely thorough, and that a safe space be found, free of school staff, whether a teacher or an admin worker, for any boy or girl to discuss any concerns they might have. Damn Ms Phillipson and her "teeth brushing lessons", this should - and usually is - done in the home. It is a cheap and easy gimmick that solves a problem that doesn't exist.

I was very lucky, in that though the nightmares lived on for years I coped with it, but one of my mates turned to drink, I am sure, in great part, because of what happened to him as a 15/16 year old, the other one became even more introspective than me. Our time was bad, but the case I have mentioned, years later , many times, is extraordinarily repellant, not least because the teacher concerned was shielded by his school, even though his behaviour was common knowledge amongst the staff and the pupils - many of them (an all boys school) wrote messages on desks and around the school. The idiot headmaster must have been blind or perverted himself.

What are your views on single sex schools?. Mine was, and the other I mentioned. Should they be allowed to continue, or be made like more normal mixed schools these days. Anyway, if I was rough yesterday, I am sorry.


Comment by: James on 22nd April 2025 at 02:23




"....What amazes me most as a reader of this site and once in a while contributor is how Alan is actually trying to defend this guy, whether he's real or not. I think he was a fake. Is this the same Alan who seems able to sniff out bad teachers like dogs sniff out drugs and is quick to condemn them, rightly so....."


A straight question deserves a straight answer, James. I got the impression Steven was a schoolteacher, partly because he wanted to make a situation which was dictatorial sound as if it were being done for the pupils own good (a bit like the old "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" crap some caning teachers used to spout). He wanted subservience from the pupils, and once he got it, it sounded as if he became reasonable. That is not uncommon in music - the younger the bandleader, the more dictatorial he is likely to be. They mellow with age - usually. So many of you seem to think he wasn't a teacher, I will have to go along with the majority verdict, this being a democratic country (just about, still).

I think you will see I made it very clear to his face so to speak that I disagreed with the stance, and suggested that IF "bad boys" played up, punish THEM, not the vast majority of the lads who were not troublemakers. The innocent should never suffer for the guilty.

I was fairly easy on him because, when I was a bit more abrasive with Mr Hind last year, one or two people suggested I had bundled him off the board and one even said I was the one who welched on him. I wasn't, I think it was despicable of whomever did it, but it wasn't, I assure you. I didn't agree with him, but I leave all arguments on the board I would never go behind anybodies back. At least he was being honest, he didn't come over in the least to me as a perv. Just misguided, like Steven was.



Comment by: Zak on 22nd April 2025 at 01:27



Zak, there is one point about your message that I would like to point out, which, shows even as late as the early 2000s P.E. teachers were in a class of their own in trying to demean boys and it is this:

"....when we were all standing around listening to our PE teacher instructions the boys who were bare chested as the skins would stand and listen with arms folded and the boys who were the shirts would stand hands on hips or beside them. I remember two of the fat ones in our class often went skins and I used to look at the pair of them and it worked as an incentive never to look like that and I wondered how they would look when they were about 30 if they were piling on the flab at 14. Our teacher drew attention to their weight once in the gym when they were on the bare chested skins side one day but none of us actually did"


That first point is very perceptive and showed that many lads were self conscious. One of your teachers decided to humiliate two boys, who might have had glandular problems, for all he knew, or had puppy fat. What a charmer! It is to the credit of your fellow pupils that you and they did not add to the boys humiliation. Now ours would have had no hesitation in joining in the shaming.

Comment by: Terry on 21st April 2025 at 22:31


"..... I'd just ask people like you YT or Alan and others here what you would have thought or felt if you'd been in a PE lesson and your teacher came up to you and 'sent you off' so to speak, ....."

Embarrassed, ashamed, terrified and afraid of the consequences afterwards in the changing room and showers. That would have been how I would have felt.Terry, but I think you have to put it in context of where you went to school, and the era. I am sure many of the lads on here who went to nice schools in Surrey or Kent, say, would have been horrified going into mine in a run down part of East London, and our teachers would have been as out of place in Surrey, as we would. Ours was a pretty rough lot, and our teachers matched the area. Our P.E. teacher was very coarse, in that respect, and indeed did make a floor show of it, when it happened, and spoke to us in ways which (I hope!) would not be tolerated today.


Comment by: James T on 21st April 2025 at 14:47


"....Alan, there was no difference doing PE in the 6th form. Like every year group we still stripped to the waist in the gym and our teachers still had us taking our vests off outdoors regardless......"

James I totally believe you (Danny C has said the same thing was the rule at his school), but I have to ask myself WHY you all put up with it?. I don't want to pry, but what decade was your experience?. When you are 18 (when I was 18) you would have been free to get married, drive a car or take out HP agreements Why did teachers expect you to comply with their bloody childish rules?. Please don't think I am having a go at you because I genuinely am not, but you were all young men in sixth form, not boys.

For domestic reasons, which will be of no interest to anyone here, I had to grow up very quickly between 17 and 19, but the one thing I was adamant about was that nobody was going to push me around again and make me do things I didn't want to do. For example, I was offered two jobs - one was in a back street company with a friendly feel to the place, the other was with a company which is still a household name (if you come from that sort of household). The back street company just wanted to know the basics, age, experience, interests, the manager asking when can you start Al?. The money was slightly less, the other company had an enormous form to fill in, the interview was more like a solicitors meeting - two interviewers with Parker pens poised in their hands and before taking me on they wanted me to have a medical examination, because they offered a BUPA membership - who thinks of being ill when you are 18.? No prizes for guessing which job I took. I liked informality and I was happy there for several years. Similar things happened in my musical career (such as it was). If I didn't like the direction things were going in, I left. I think Don't Fence Me In would have been my sig tune. Freedom was (and is) more important to me than money.

Again, I hope these days sixth formers don't even have to face the indignities of the school gym and shower room, unless they want to. I would like to know the position of these poor kids forced to stay on in their prisons till they are 18, just so that governments of ALL persuasions can fiddle the unemployment register, and show how much they have allowed the economy to fail.

Comment by: Andrew on 19th April 2025 at 22:55
OK Steven, cut the claptrap please.
The moment you started talking about schoolboys erect penises down their shorts in PE lessons was the moment I fully understood you are not an authentic PE teacher but a fantasist.




Of course you're right Andrew.

What amazes me most as a reader of this site and once in a while contributor is how Alan is actually trying to defend this guy, whether he's real or not. I think he was a fake. Is this the same Alan who seems able to sniff out bad teachers like dogs sniff out drugs and is quick to condemn them, rightly so. I mean, we've got someone claiming to be a teacher who actually admitted to shaming boys in PE lessons who he saw with erections. That is the basic fact of what that chap was saying when you get down to it. So if he was real then he was a rotten idiot but somehow managed to make out he was being kind and considerate. Ha bloody ha to that I say!

Even if you were sporting the most massive boner out of the blue in PE and trying to get rid of it through your own embarrassment, and let's suppose your teacher on the day even accidentally clocked it, the teacher would probably be far too embarrassed themselves to say a word. That's why Steven the teacher has been pilloried on here by almost everyone, because it's transparent rubbish and everyone knows it, and so should you Alan, and I think you must, because you are not a stupid man I know that.

I was at secondary school between 1999 and 2005 and took PE lessons twice weekly. Taking our shirts off to be bare chested was something that came along a reasonable amount of the time both inside and out. Some boys often took their tops off on the cross country run and the teachers didn't mind that. The most common place we actually got told to take our tops off and go bare chested was in the school gym for any number of reasons. Everyone seemed to do so instantly when told to. I stayed on at school and was in the sixth form from 2003 until 2005 and also did some PE during that time. We had lots of free periods to fill and the easiest thing to do was PE. I did some of that PE bare chested. We were expected to shower at school and all did so, but not in the sixth form where it was voluntary if we did PE. Some of us did and some chose not to. Sometimes I did and other times I didn't bother. Teachers were not really watching us in the sixth form like they were before that. Showers were just the normal communal type but there was plenty of room for us all to do the job. I think many of my gym classes were more like 20 to 25 rather than the bigger numbers some say on here.

I've never spoken to anyone about bare chested PE lessons before so I have got no idea what anyone I was at school with 20 to 25 years ago must have thought about it. I was fairly quiet, but not shy although not someone who would have taken my own top off of my own accord in school but would have done on holiday in Ibiza or somewhere.

Bare chested team game sports play was still popular in my time at school as well with class divided up into the skins side or the shirts side. One little observation I always used to notice on days we did that at school, and it was when we were all standing around listening to our PE teacher instructions the boys who were bare chested as the skins would stand and listen with arms folded and the boys who were the shirts would stand hands on hips or beside them. I remember two of the fat ones in our class often went skins and I used to look at the pair of them and it worked as an incentive never to look like that and I wondered how they would look when they were about 30 if they were piling on the flab at 14. Our teacher drew attention to their weight once in the gym when they were on the bare chested skins side one day but none of us actually did.

Alan I am neither in favour of or against the type of PE kit you and others disliked, the shirtless look no tops allowed approach or the use of showering. I am completely neutral about it. But anything that aids improved standards and attainment is always welcome, which is what you would expect me to say at the very least isn't it. My preference is for voluntary arrangements and agreements that meet acceptable standards.

I don't hold the teaching profession in unconditional high regard at all, if I did that I would have made a very poor inspector of schools. I've already said how I knew all the tricks school heads could get up to to, and you needed a certain level of critical thinking in the job and to know what to look for and what questions to ask and what to see.

Please don't feel I've doubted your comments, that's to overthink things too far. What you say as a school child should be treated differently from what someone says as a school teacher, and a person such as Steven should be held to a higher level than yourself, simply because you were the minor and he was the adult. The balance of probabilities leads me to conclude the particular story of his actions was no more than a tall tale and his wish to leave confirms this to me on account of his being confronted openly. I'm not saying there were never any teachers that did any wrong, we know that's not the case. There were and are. I'd have a teacher behaving in the way Steven suggested, down as a bad egg. I not only say that as a retired inspector but as a mother of a son and daughter too who would not have been very happy to discover my own son being handled in that manner.

I also think that the genuinely bad or sexually inappropriate teachers out there would tend to keep quiet about behaving in such a manner towards their pupils and not admit their past behaviour openly, which also adds to my lack of belief in Steven's account on the erectile issue he raised.

Alan, I must remind you that 8 out of 10 cats did not say they liked Whiskas. It was 8 out of 10 OWNERS who said their cats preferred it. I have three cats and they all eat it. You never even named the brand but I knew the one you meant.

That could be an urban school legend Yours Truly couldn't it. Who knows?

Regarding the 'Steven' posts, I'd just ask people like you YT or Alan and others here what you would have thought or felt if you'd been in a PE lesson and your teacher came up to you and 'sent you off' so to speak, which is what Steven suggested he did, if he thought someone was having an erection. If you knew why you were being approached and sent off for five minutes, how would you have felt about a teacher actually making you know he'd seen what's happening down your shorts. No matter how discrete, I would be mortified and it would add to any embarrassment I already might have felt. That's why I don't believe it, like the others.

It's quite a different thing for those of us who were pupils at school coming on this forum and talking about ourselves as school age boys doing PE and having showers and seeing our parts and mentioning erection fears and all that kind of thing. We were the children then, and are talking from out own childhood perspectives. That is sort of alright by me and if people wish to discuss those things so be it, we were all boys and know how things can get at that age there and even any other age. We can say these things to each other.

It's a big difference when someone comes on here from a teacher perspective and starts talking such talk. That not only lacks credibility but is actually rather creepy to me. If Steven was a teacher then he was breaking the boundaries of acceptable. Sending someone out of a PE lesson for a momentary erection issue that probably most of the class wouldn't even have noticed. Come off it. That's not a real teacher talking to me, and if it was then like Christine suggested last night, he sounds a bit dodgy, masking as respectful and caring. Don't many inappropriate people around children try to pull that persona. I don't think he was a dodgy teacher, because I don't think he was a teacher at all. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong in some way with further proof, such as what these teacher training colleges told new PE teachers in the past over certain PE related non sport issues. Showers for example, did this crop up at teacher training and how to behave responsibly or was it ignored as something to train about.

The thing is, and I don't want to come across as what Alan sometimes calls 'amateur psychologists' but often when we feel self conscious about something to do with us we are told that it's only us that is noticing and nobody else really is, which is probably accurate in many cases, including if you got a bit hard on in PE unwanted.

Going back to the start with your story YT, I suppose if a lad walks out the showers boldly sporting a full erection then possibly someone might mention it! But didn't most of us soon wrap towels around us anyway or if someone really did have such an unfortunate event they'd have both hands glued to the groin as they walked away. The story you mention means the teacher must have forced the boy to keep his arms by his side and keep everything on view. It seems unlikely don't you think, that would be abuse good and proper wouldn't it. That's why I think it could be one of those school urban legends that sound funny. I remember a few myself. Does anyone else have any really good school urban legends they used to hear?

I couldn't agree more on your 'rite of passage' comment about school showers YT. I think many feel this way. There was much more to it than washing, it was about establishing a culture of some sort.