Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Stephen on 6th March 2024 at 23:16



Except Stephen, you left off three words of your edited quote from me, which were "on one word". If you are only going to quote selected portions, it is usual to follow that with three dots ... to show an edit has been made. Cheat fair, Steve.

For the sake of clarity I repeat the quotation if full: "This fixating on one word seems to be a favourite ploy when others can't - or won't - answer a straightforward question"

Somebody else, like Robbie himself, choosing not to respond to the more serious point I had made - i.e. why modesty seems to be a requirement at commercial gyms, but not in school. The question is - why?

“Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.” – Friedrich Nietzsche

Speaking practically, all a young male needs to do physical education in a gymnasium or sports hall in school is a pair of shorts on, anything else is just clutter.

I remember when I used to do PE at local senior comprehensive school back some 45 to 50 years ago now and the enjoyment I got out of being able to get out of a stifling school uniform trussed up with shirt collar tight on my neck and the tie tightened around too and a heavy blazer, long socks and heavy leather shoes. It was a pleasure to go along to gym PE and have a chance to get all that off and saunter along to the school gym for PE as any of my teachers of PE wanted us, in shorts and nothing else at all. I welcomed such an opportunity to cast just about everything I had on aside. We shared the gym in PE with lots of girls too at the time. I know some people say they felt vulnerable like that but in my case I actually felt rather confident in doing so, and when it came to showers in school I took to those like a duck to water too but you could see that such things pained others and they would work themselves up into a real state about showers at school, going shirtless or just PE in general. Luckily I wasn't one of those.

Here is a site called Teen Hut where just a few months ago some modern school kids were talking about old PE ways and uniform, such as this comment here;

'In school in assembly last week we were watching some old footage from the school. There were some clips from some old PE lessons in the 80s and it was very funny seeing the uniform as it was different to what is normal today. Girls were wearing leotard-like costumes and leggings. And the boys had to go shirtless and just wear shorts, even in mixed lessons with girls! Some of the boys seemed to think that was quite awkward when we talked about it afterwards.

How do you think you would have found this old style of kit? Do you think it would be practical, or embarrassing or unfair? Did anyone here have to wear a kit they found awkward or embarrassing?'

https://www.teenhut.net/thread/170253-old-fashioned-physical-education-uniform-at-school/

Alan tonight responding to Robbie- "this insidious nit-picking and fixation"

As someone so acutely self aware and self conscious I'm sure this comment of yours will make you blush enormously won't it for the momentary lapse of self awareness on your part, I very respectfully suggest.

Tony, on the small sample size, I daresay you're right.

Comment by: Matthew S on 6th March 2024 at 17:01
It is interesting that 88% of the 12- to 13-year-old boys and 92% of the 13- to 14-year-old boys in Nathan Hind's two classes were unconcerned about doing PE with no shirts on, at the very age when, as Adrian says, you might reasonably expect self-consciousness to be at its greatest, and also at a time when obesity rates are high.
If pupils went one at a time to place their coins, whether each coin placed was heads up or tails up might not have been discernible at a distance of even two metres.



I think I'd been very keen to see a far bigger sample size on that question to be completely honest about it. It would come as a big surprise to me to see that ratio repeated across all others to that extent. We have Cedric here saying out of his two sons one wasn't keen for instance. By the way, nice to have some thought from someone delving further back than many can manage on here so welcome Cedric, and it was interesting and backed up a couple of other recent posts about boys at school furthest back in memory doing PE in vests and t-shirts, often pristine whites, and then boys in more recent pre-millennium decades like the 70's and 80's switching to the bare chest way of doing things more often than not.


James, one thing I noticed about the school YT clip of yours was that you did athletics outside without trainers on, nearly all seemed barefoot on the grass running. As you said you were in South Africa at the time this reminded me of the famous South African runner Zola Budd who caused a fuss in 1984 doing that in competition, so I was interested to see the whole school running outside like that which doesn't seem the normal way. But at least you all kept your vests on and I'm sure that will please our Alan here. No offence Alan!

Some people have been querying my use of the word "exhibitionistic" in relation to the few men who use public/private gyms, minus a shirt. I can only say that when the majority of men wear shirts, and the few who don't flaunt themselves in a way the others don't,(posing usually at the windows or door) then that is a fair use of the word I chose. With all due respect, some of you have been so busy jumping on that word, you seem to have missed the final lines of that observation - namely why school students are not allowed the same degree of modesty that Tim's, for example, gym demands of adults. This fixating on one word seems to be a favourite ploy when others can't - or won't - answer a straightforward question.

Cedric: I can understand why some lads, through nervousness or embarrassment , (several posters have referred to the modern "towel dance", so it is a fairly common occurrence) don't like using group showers. My problem at school was that our teacher used to enjoy watching us (I can see him now, forty years on standing there watching with his hands in his track suit - many of the lads used to comment on that). It is sad that men of that sort seek work with children and teenagers. In this day and age there are so many alternatives for them - personal trainers, work in the numerous private gym companies (our town has three in the town centre alone, and there are others around the town on the outskirts), or coaching adults. I always despised being amongst his free entertainment. There are many jobs for the athletic homosexual beyond the school gates, even though the holidays will be shorter.

Yesterday I referred to Craig as "Chris" - my apologies - I am surprised only Robbie has pulled me up on that one!. Anyway, the same comment applies. What people chose to do privately is their own concern, not mine. But please, Robbie, stop trying to stir up trouble. where none exists, That is all I am saying on the subject. Why not take up some of the other points I have made, instead of this insidious nit-picking and fixation on one word.

It is interesting that 88% of the 12- to 13-year-old boys and 92% of the 13- to 14-year-old boys in Nathan Hind's two classes were unconcerned about doing PE with no shirts on, at the very age when, as Adrian says, you might reasonably expect self-consciousness to be at its greatest, and also at a time when obesity rates are high.

If pupils went one at a time to place their coins, whether each coin placed was heads up or tails up might not have been discernible at a distance of even two metres.

Comment by: Alan on 5th March 2024 at 18:14
Comment by: Robbie on 5th March 2024 at 15:28
It is not my affair what Chris gets up to Robbie. Please don't try to put words into my mouth.



It was Craig, the bareskin running chap, not Chris.

You used a very general term - 'a few men do choose to display themselves without shirts, but these, I suspect are exhibitionists' - these are the words you used, and I was just citing Craig as an actual example to make my point to you.

So do you think such activities as that are undertaken by mere exhibitionists, when grown adults choose to do so? You gave what was a classic politician's non answer to an easy question!


Comment by: Cedric on 5th March 2024 at 22:31
I also remember that everyone seemed quite able and very fit indeed, and we were still on post war rationing at the time and so were often quite hungry. Even the sweets were limited.
I was at a grammar school in the late 40's and early 50's. I am now 86.


Now you really are going back in time there Cedric. What a great point you make about being on rations and yet everyone still remaining fit, active and with the energy to do PE effectively back then still.

Following on from some of the sports day and gym videos placed here, I grew up in South Africa and went to school in Durban until I was 13 years old and my family returned to the UK. Sports day over there was actually very English and even the name of my primary school was probably more English sounding than actual schools back here, it was called Manor Gardens Primary School.

I am in the clip from 1979, in white vest, shorts & barefoot doing 200 metres and also tug of war.

https://youtu.be/0iVdPT22mus?feature=shared

Sorry to go back to such an old comment but I just read this from Bill....

Comment by: Bill on 1st December 2023 at 00:00
Craig - "bareskin runner" man.

About half the boys I saw cross country running out of Queensbury Academy in Dunstable on Monday afternoon this week were running along shirtless with entirely bare chests. They looked to be about 15 to me. There must have been at least 20 doing that. It looked very old school and like they might have even been divided up like that deliberately but it was impossible to tell.




My own son is hoping to study sports sciences at uni next year, he's currently in a sixth form and there's a running club in school that now does just the same as you have described here Bill, not at this school however, so it's not unique, and he runs through suburban Sheffield and enjoys it immensely. I do not know the exact numbers involved but it's a dozen or so I think. Anything that gives rise to a healthy mind and body is alright with me. I'm sure exhibitionism has nothing to do with it although being naturally confident obviously helps and he's got that.

Comment by Alan on 5th March 2024.
Where showers are concerned - personally I am pro shower.


I am also in favour of compulsion when it comes to the after PE hygiene routine. Awkwardness never lasted long with these things in my school and once everyone had got that first couple of times out the way, seeing each other nude after PE became so routine it was almost nothing.

I do not recall taking part in gymnastics at school without a white vest and black shorts. I also remember that everyone seemed quite able and very fit indeed, and we were still on post war rationing at the time and so were often quite hungry. Even the sweets were limited.

Later on both my sons went on to grammar schools also and would be seen sporting the bare chest when I visited for sports afternoon annually. I had no concerns about this, but one was much less confident than the other and wasn't so keen.

I was at a grammar school in the late 40's and early 50's. I am now 86.

@ David - 16.15 - Thanks ...

@ Stuart B - 17.41 something to do with what people wear in health clubs ... 'nuff said - its over.
T

Comment by: Stuart B on 5th March 2024 at 17:41
I'm scratching my head here trying to work out what the actual point of the exchange here is between Alan and Tim. I've read the posts through twice and still don't get it.
It doesn't make sense to me, does it to anyone else?



No. No sense whatsoever. What is the point of this argument/exchange?

Please explain.

Comment by: Robbie on 5th March 2024 at 15:28


It is not my affair what Chris gets up to Robbie. Please don't try to put words into my mouth.

I'm scratching my head here trying to work out what the actual point of the exchange here is between Alan and Tim. I've read the posts through twice and still don't get it.

It doesn't make sense to me, does it to anyone else?

@ Alan - 04.08

Alan - you made a comment :
"Nobody bothered to see a point I made last week, and that is, adults, who are exercising in two gyms nearby choose to wear a top when exercising - the ratio of shirted versus unshirted is the opposite of Nathan's straw poll. You see very few men opting for the shirtless look there. Both buildings have glass facias opening on to the street. There, of course they have no "sir" telling them what to do, and they are there of their own volition."

Sarah replied:
"They may not have "Sir" telling them what to wear, but they do have gym dress-codes to contend with, and in my experience, most gyms require men to wear tops", to which I agreed.

Your reply: "To answer both yourself and Sarah, regulations or no, a few men do choose to display themselves without shirts, but these, I suspect are exhibitionists, usually of the weight lifting variety" - I find very strange because in the better part of forty years as a gym 'regular', I can't recall anyone behaving on the gym as they shouldn't. I don't 'pump iron' nowadays but I do find the comment about weightlifters rather insulting.

Later you say: "Both buildings have glass facias opening on to the street" - fine, OK, fine - if you say so thats it - no problems. All I'm saying is that my gym had a major refurbishment last year and that the big glass windows were taken out & replaced by darkened material. There were no bus stops close by, and the building was perhaps forty odd feet from a pavement - possibly just a matter of privacy?

Next time you're in London, walk over Hungerford Bridge (on the downstream side) from the South Bank. Don't leave when you reach the North side - walk on and before you enter Charing Cross station you'll find a large gym on the left hand side (unless its closed) - the windows are (or were) frosted - presumably for privacy.

And thats it ...

In what way has anything Tim said here been construed as offensive exactly? I think he is one of the most polite forum members here isn't he. Your hypersensitivity is remarkable Alan, are you even more sensitive now you are older than you were at school a few years ago? It's not hard to see why you found PE troubling with your sensitive nature is it.

Mind you, I wasn't even bothered by Damon and I see Tim has rebuked him!

It's amazing to think that just reading this history thread where many men, and a few women, who were mostly last at school well over 30 years ago and are speaking about their PE lessons has actually made a modern day PE teacher question what he is doing and ask questions himself. I don't think you would be doing what you say otherwise would you Nathan?

The result you got with the heads/tails choice looks like a very positive vindication of your classes there and it's hard to see how that was anything other than the authentic collective voice of those two classes.

You said the following Alan,

'a few men do choose to display themselves without shirts, but these, I suspect are exhibitionists'


Reading this made me wonder if you also think that men like Craig on here who have set up a bareskins running group are also exhibitionists and those that have chosen to join him in that pursuit are also?

If you've got a group of regular looking men hanging out like that and doing something they are enjoying in like minded fashion I don't think exhibitionism comes into it at all. I think he said that some were less confident and it had helped with mindfulness didn't he, and it has nothing to do with wanting to actually be noticed.


I think Nathan's vote is a great idea insofar as it means he is clearly a listening kind of teacher and that was not always the case when I was at school when it was just a case of doing something and not answering back about things that might be of concern, on any subject, or sometimes feeling you couldn't say something because the teacher had a bit of a poor reputation.

If a vote is taken and is overwhelming I think it should be respected either way it goes, even if that means there are a few unhappy on the losing side, such as in this case if it meant skins carrying on. There can be no claim of unfairness if the actual classes have expressed a decisive opinion to be alright with a shirtless PE lesson if asked to.

I think being able to do some shirtless PE in school is broadly speaking a reasonable idea and has even helped out some self conscious boys in the past realise they are fine doing so and made them overcome fears they might have had beforehand.

"Comment by: TimH on 4th March 2024 at 19:26
Just to follow-up Sarah's 17.46 post in response to Alan.

"Sarah - you just beat me to it! I'm not sure of the exact wording of the regulations at my gym but its pretty implicit that 'tops' & 'bottoms' must be worn. We've had no problems with this, except when some people decided to use the 'wet area' in their underwear, which was frowned upon.


During a recent refurbishment the original windows were removed and replaced by ones which prevent people outside from gawping at members whilst they exercise. This seems to be a fairly common policy now."

Before I go further, Tim, I don't know if you were trying to be deliberately offensive, but in reference to that final paragraph - BOTH gyms I have in mind have bus stops directly outside and opposite their premises . As I don't drive, I have to use public transport from time to time. If you wish to contact me privately I will give you the names and addresses of both establishments so you can check on Google street maps, to prove I am telling the truth. I don't go around "gawping" as you so inelegantly put it, any more than I post bits of grainy old film eavesdropping on school PE lessons of the past, or wishing the past could come back so that kids could be treated as if they were national servicemen, in wartime, or passing imaginary playing fields in winter.

To answer both yourself and Sarah, regulations or no, a few men do choose to display themselves without shirts, but these, I suspect are exhibitionists, usually of the weight lifting variety. But you both raise an interesting point: if rules are written to encourage modesty for adults, why are kids not circumscribed by the same rules?. What is the difference between say, a 16 year old at school and a 17 year old who has left school?. One could be forced to remove their shirt, whereas the other would be forced to keep it on. The hypocrisy of this country can be jaw-dropping at times.



Comment by: Nathan Hind on 4th March 2024 at 23:43


I hope you would consider using your poll to include both the youngest and oldest of your pupils, as I strongly suspect the votes would be somewhat different. The youngest will have come from schools where the policies of most junior schools are more relaxed, and the oldest ones will (I hope) have developed minds of their own and be less enamoured of authority.

Where showers are concerned - personally I am pro shower (we only had a bath at home when I was a kid and I always slightly disliked the feeling you were washing in your own dirt, and as I have said before, I perspire very easily), but of course, deodorants are freely available and if somebody wishes not to shower, I don't see that as too much of a problem, but that might be a step too far for a staid school. I do feel, however, very strongly, that the showering arrangements should be far less intrusive than they were at my school.

Comment by: Matthew S on 4th March 2024 at 22:20
Just in case it should be of any interest, here is old footage of a PE class from 1981, also from the Huntley Archives site: https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1041996



The school looks to be younger than even primary there, top year infants maybe, around seven or eight. They're all now about fifty.

But I think there is a massive difference between that age doing PE like that and doing so at the older ages, even late primary, and of course secondary ages. Few children that age here are going to feel concerned. Many of the issues that get spoken about with shirtless PE come along a lot later. I know, been there done it. I wasn't bothered doing PE like that at the ages there, became very different by twelve for me. I did shirtless PE at some stage in all three schools I attended through from the late sixties until the year of your clip when I left, basically I was a 1970's schoolboy and a child of that era was expected to do these things without complaint at age five or fifteen.

Damon.

I don't mind your analogy in the least and can assure you my own vote was as authentic as the results of the next UK election are going to be, whatever the outcome. Hope that helps.

I am considering what you suggested actually, and have presented a case to my colleague on that, so watch this space. The points raised are fair.

On your final line, mandated v voluntary, as I've only worked in a school for 9 years where showering is required I cannot vouch for how things turn out in others where such things are non-mandated but the point is well made.

I was asked to go bare chested when the class does. I would be more than happy to do so but it is not encouraged for staff to do so. Yes, I know that sounds dreadfully hypocritical. Nothing has been written down about this, so I am keen to seek clarification on this one for my own benefit.

Just in case it should be of any interest, here is old footage of a PE class from 1981, also from the Huntley Archives site: https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1041996

A little later than the films "A Yorkshire Dad" posted links to on 1st March.

Just to follow-up Sarah's 17.46 post in response to Alan.

Sarah - you just beat me to it! I'm not sure of the exact wording of the regulations at my gym but its pretty implicit that 'tops' & 'bottoms' must be worn. We've had no problems with this, except when some people decided to use the 'wet area' in their underwear, which was frowned upon.

During a recent refurbishment the original windows were removed and replaced by ones which prevent people outside from gawping at members whilst they exercise. This seems to be a fairly common policy now.

Alan said

"Nobody bothered to see a point I made last week, and that is, adults, who are exercising in two gyms nearby choose to wear a top when exercising - the ratio of shirted versus unshirted is the opposite of Nathan's straw poll. You see very few men opting for the shirtless look there. Both buildings have glass facias opening on to the street. There, of course they have no "sir" telling them what to do, and they are there of their own volition."

They may not have "Sir" telling them what to wear, but they do have gym dress-codes to contend with, and in my experience, most gyms require men to wear tops.

Damon - your post is out of order - please desist,

Sad to say, I wondered how long it would be before the naysayers appeared.

T

Comment by: Dave on 3rd March 2024 at 19:42

"I think Nathan is a great teacher. Well with all the respect I think that voting is not the best idea. Someone posted some days ago that it has a little bit of a message that there is something wrong being shirtless for PE. There is no swimming teacher who ask the boys the question: "do you find correct being barechested for swimming lessons"? I think it is the same beacause if we think it over there is no real purpose of shirts in PE. T-shirts are getting in a way especially in gymnastics. Vests are better allowing a great freedom of movement but they are almost the same as barechested. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I really don't see what the problem is with doing intense workout without shirts."

Well, one difference is that swimming makes you wet, and the practice of wearing swimwear is universal. It is, however, hard to explain to a lad why a school literally down the road from their school are allowed to exercise in tee or polo shirts, while they are not. It is all down to the whim of their teacher.

Nobody bothered to see a point I made last week, and that is, adults, who are exercising in two gyms nearby choose to wear a top when exercising - the ratio of shirted versus unshirted is the opposite of Nathan's straw poll. You see very few men opting for the shirtless look there. Both buildings have glass facias opening on to the street. There, of course they have no "sir" telling them what to do, and they are there of their own volition.

It would be interesting if Nathan conducted his experimental vote with the under 13s and the over 14s - he might get a very different set of results.

It's 2024 and yet we are still discussing whether boys should return to the practices of the 1950s-1990s when education is supposed to be about the world today - not yesterday. Even a vest (singlet) makes you feel literally less exposed. which will help lads who are less confident. I still don't understand, frankly, why so many grown men want to see lads running around with no top on, and get so evangelistic about it - could it be they feel that just because we had to undergo that treatment, they should have to as well?.

Comment by: Dave on 3rd March 2024 at 22:09
Damon please leave out anything compared to a war criminal. Things discussed here have nothing to do with that. Very strange image associaton.Thanks.


Oh come on Dave. It was a perfectly acceptable analogy, no more, no less than that and I think Damon made quite it well actually to draw attention to how votes can sometimes not be all they seem. Similar to what was made earlier by Owen on the nature of how you ask the question to get the answer.

I don't agree with Damon's suspicions. Those numbers are plausible I'm sure, but that was just two classes. I do think if you want to do votes like that you should do them in a properly controlled manner and involve everyone, not just a couple of classes. If you are going to do it to those two groups of Year 8 and 9 then why should the others not be allowed a say.

If you do that, it should actually have meaning, therefore everyone agrees to abide by whatever the outcome is, even if that means a change in PE policy, which obviously you would have to agree with staff ahead of time.

I hope that's a constructive piece of advice being given, if you are going down this way of teaching and listening. It would not be my way to do things. As I said last week (27 Feb) when you take a lesson and you tell others to be bare chested in it, do so yourself, and just hang the whistle around your neck and nothing more.

Damon please leave out anything compared to a war criminal. Things discussed here have nothing to do with that. Very strange image associaton.Thanks.

You wouldn't be having a little North Korean style, and soon to be Putin Russia style voting white lie there with your figures would you Nathan, in order to shore up your position?

Give all your classes a shoe box vote and let's see what you come back with after that!

On the showers, as was mentioned in a previous comment today, I'd just add this. Why is it that when showering at school is merely a voluntary arrangement most pupils don't bother and skip them, and it's only mandatory that gets them doing it?