Hesketh Fletcher Gym Team

Hi Claire,
How annoying! At least my dad never commented on my bra (if he noticed it).

I don't have any brothers and was at an all girls school by the time I started wearing a bra, so I guess I got off lightly compared to some. I recall the boys at Primary school taking an interest when a few girls started to 'develop' during our final year there.

Michael, where is your school located?

Doctor J Wallace we must act to end forced nude showers in all educational institutions. I had to undergo this state sponsored humiliation between September 1985 to April 1987 for football, rugby and cross country.

Some UK state schools still carry out this barbaric practice. Please see below:

https://www.hernebayhigh.org/our-school/uniform/

Physical Education Clothing

Physical Education is an integral part of the curriculum and it is essential that students change for the lessons. The clothing listed below is required by all students taking part in PE/Games: Please ensure that all items of uniform and PE kit are clearly marked with your child’s name.

PE Kit for all Years 7—11 students — boys and girls (which can only be purchased from Barnums)

Black tracksuit trousers with School logo
Black rain jacket with School logo
Black Mid-layer with School logo
Red polo shirt with School logo
Black shorts with School logo
Black socks with red top
Girls can also wear a Black Skort which is embroidered with the School logo
All students should have a pair of clean indoor trainers to use in the indoor facilities (gymnasium, sports hall, climbing wall, fitness suite). Plimsolls or similar flimsy cloth or canvas shoes are not suitable for PE lessons as they offer no foot support. Students must have appropriate trainers or running shoes.

A pair of outdoor trainers and/or football boots are required for outdoor lessons.
Shin pads are advisable for football and hockey.
A gumshield is advisable for hockey and rugby.
Showers: A towel will be required when a shower is necessary.

Swimming: A costume will be required for students involved in swimming during PE lessons.

It is essential that students bring their PE kit to change into even if they are not taking part in PE lessons

Oh Andrea don't! I had 2 older brothers who could be real nightmares and for a laugh would move my bra right to the front of the clothes line so as many people as possible could see it! When I protested to my mum she simply told me to get on with it. Looking back she was right.

I got to Teagle Hall (Cornell), where the pool was. They said “strip, shower, and go to the pool to take the swimming test.” And they handed me this piece of paper. So me and this other guy were wandering around naked, trying to find the pool without our glasses, and hoping that we wouldn’t accidentally find the women’s gymnastic team or something.

Eventually we found the pool. People swimming. An official-looking guy sitting at the table. We said “well, obviously, we’re not going to swim while carrying this paperwork, we’re clearly supposed to hand it to him for safekeeping while we do the test.”

So I handed it to him, he stamped “swim test passed” on it, and handed it back to me.

So that was it. Never went in the pool.

I now teach at North Eastern University Massachusetts and students are still required to strip nude before using the pool.

https://www.northeastern.edu/campusrec/aquatics/rules.php

Pool Rules


Use of the pool during open swim hours is permitted only in the presence of a University employed lifeguard.
All pool users must take a nude shower before entering the pool. (this is mandated by the State of Massachusetts)
All hairclips, pins, and jewelry must be removed before entering the pool.
All male pool users must wear a conventional one piece swimming suit. All female pool users must wear a conventional one piece swimming suit or a moderate to conservative cut, 2 piece suit. (Cut-offs, running shorts, gym shorts,running tights, or any other clothing, are prohibited).
Safe lap swim will be in effect: Lane 1 & 2 slow; Lanes 3 & 4 Fast; Lanes 5 & 6 Medium.
When more than 3 swimmers are in each lane, please swim in circles. Remember, be courteous with your fellow swimmers.
Swimming under the bulkhead will not be permitted at any time.
Use of the starting blocks will not be permitted at any time.
No diving into the shallow end of the pool.
Use of diving boards will not be permitted at any time.
Only flip flops or bare feet are permitted on the pool deck.
Face masks and snorkels will not be permitted at any time. Only short training flippers will be permitted.
Eating, drinking, and smoking are prohibited anywhere in the building.
Glass containers should not be brought into the pool ares, bleachers or locker rooms.
No horseplay or running on the deck will be permitted at any time.
Only lifeguards and Northeastern University swimming and diving coaches are allowed on the bulkhead.
Lifeguards reserve the right to administer a swim test to any individual, any time they think it necessary. They may remove any individual from the pool from the pool at any time.
Leave all personal belongings locked in a locker. The pool deck must be kept clear at all times.
Lifeguards may prohibit any activity they deem hazardous. They may remove any individual from the pool at any time.

Claire,
Talking about being embarrassed about being seen in your bra, I felt the same the first time my mum hung one of mine on the washing line when my dad was at home!

Hi Andrea, I forgot to add I was 15 and 16 when this happened. But being the same for everyone was a big leveller

Hi Andrea, I didn't mind going to my bra. I'd have likely died if there had been boys around. I'm with you, I certainly would not have gone braless, though there wasn't much to show anyway. Most of us got caught out at some point and rules were rules. I would have enjoyed seeing boys go topless to exercise though, it would've been something different!

The comments about the girls being amused reminds me of a similar experience at junior school. In the last year of junior school I had some shorts that where a little transparent and the girls used to comment that they could see the colour of underpants I was wearing. A few months later at senior school we had a fire drill during PE, outside standing around the same girls where commenting they couldn't tell what colour underpants I had on - I answered we weren't allowed to wear any and from then on the comments where always I can see you've got no underpants on..

I started school in the mid 1960's, we were lucky in that my Infant and Primary school had a proper gym, changing rooms and showers, rather unusual at Primary schools in those days! Right through Infants (age 5 to 8) and Primary (age 8 to 11) Lessons were always 'mixed' and we all had to wear the same for PE. There was a 'single layer rule' for PE, none of us (boys or girls) were allowed to wear any underwear, and we didn't wear socks or shoes.

Boys wore very thin white nylon shorts which, (to the amusement of the girls) were almost completely transparent! Also we weren't allowed to wear any 'tops' in the gym. When we had outdoor PE we wore socks and shoes and in cool weather we were allowed to wear t-shirts or vests (but we were still not allowed to wear anything under our shorts!)


The girls wore black 'PE knickers' and white tops for PE and like us they had to go barefoot in the gym but wore socks and shoes outside.

After the lesson we all had to take our PE kit off and go in the showers together naked, in Infants the classes were smaller and the boys and girls shared one changing room and shower, but once we reached 8 and were in the Primary school the boys and girls had separate changing rooms and showers, however even the boys were supervised in the changing rooms by female teachers who made sure we all took our shorts off and went in the showers naked, even when we were 11 years old!

I confess that I hated PE, but loved going in the shower with the other boys, we didn't have a shower at home (they were quite unusual in those days) and it was a real treat to use the one at school!

Hi Claire,

Like you I went to an all girls school, but was used to seeing boys without their shirts on during hot weather in the summer holidays and they didn't seem to mind!

Although I never had to do it, I suppose doing indoor PE in bra and knickers wouldn't have been too bad, especially with no boys around. On the other hand, I would have thought that having to do it topless, as described by Laura, would have been both embarrassing and uncomfortable, especially in year 9! By then we were all wearing bras, and some of my classmates were quite well endowed!

Wat year were you in when you did PE in bra and knickers?

Hi Laura, I've found this while looking for something totally unrelated. May I ask if you got to see the boys go topless often? What did you think about it, did they mind? I went to an all girls school but did 2 PE lessons and a detention in just a bra after getting my days muddled I deserved it and didn't have any complaints, rules were rules.

https://www.toynbee.hants.sch.uk/uniform

PE

A towel for use after taking a shower and changes of underwear and socks, are essential. All

games and PE kit should be taken home after use for washing. Pupils should be reminded to bring

it to school on the appropriate days and should not wear their day clothes for PE. A gum-shield is

recommended for hockey (boys and girls) and rugby (boys) but is not compulsory. In Year 11 both

boys and girls are allowed to wear plain black tracksuit bottoms or dance trousers for their PE

lesson, if they wish.



Girls’ PE Wear:

Plain black polo shirt from the school supplier or plain black T-shirt

Black reversible Rugby shirt with red band from the school supplier, or a plain black sweatshirt (no

hoods)

Black shorts

Black or white trainers (no plimsolls)

Long red sports socks or short plain white sports socks (depending on the activity)

Football boots (metal studs are not allowed on the synthetic pitch) and shin guards



Boys’ PE Wear:

Plain black polo shirt from the school supplier or plain black T-shirt

Black reversible Rugby shirt with red band from the school supplier, or a plain black sweatshirt (no

hoods)

Black shorts

Black or white trainers (no plimsolls)

Long red sports socks or short plain white sports socks (depending on the activity)

Football boots (metal studs are not allowed on the synthetic pitch) and shin guards

(Boxer shorts must not be worn during PE lessons; tighter fitting underpants should be worn.)

Sir Alexander Fleming School in Sutton Hill said it had given the seven-year-old pupils, who had no PE kit, the chance to take part in the session in underwear, or to remain in the classroom instead.

The school said the pupils had voluntarily taken part in the lesson, which happened last Wednesday.

But one parent, Dorcis Kimani, said her daughter was upset and felt she could not say no to taking part.

"It's ridiculous. I now want to take my children to another school," she said.

"I was in the wrong not to make sure she had a PE kit, but my daughter is very upset."

Mrs Kimani met the school's headteacher, but said they had disagreed over the approach.

She said: "I spoke to the headteacher and was told that my daughter was very happy in the session, but they don't know how my daughter was feeling. She didn't feel like she had an option. The teacher is an authority and the authority was telling her what to do."

“It was boys and girls mixed, I need an apology.”

Ms Kimani said that up to 10 other pupils had forgotten their PE kits and were still involved in the session.

Jan Cousins, head teacher of Sir Alexander Fleming Primary, said: "There were many children who had no PE Kit on Wednesday afternoon.

"These children were given the option of remaining in class or, for health and safety reasons, removing their trousers and shoes in order to take part. All of the children who had no PE kit voluntarily decided to take part in the PE lesson."

Mrs Cousins said that there was no option to hand out spare kits. She said: “Unfortunately all of our spare PE Kits had been previously issued to children and had not been returned.“ Telford & Wrekin Council claimed that getting children who have forgotten their PE kit to do the class in their underwear happens every day across the country.

Council spokesman Russell Griffin said: “This was a decision taken on the day by staff at a particular school based on the fact that the pupils in question had indicated they did want to take part in the PE lesson.

“I understand that all the pupils concerned enjoyed the lesson

“There is no national guidance on the subject but pragmatic decisions like this are taken every day in schools up and down the country.”

Laura,
When were you at secondary school?
It sounds incredibly harsh having girls of up to 14 or 15 having to take part in mixed PE lessons topless!

In my school, if we forgot our PE kit, we had to borrow some (usually rather dirty and smelly) from the lost property cupboard. We were also still expected to shower afterwards, borrowing someone else's already wet towel.

I thought my secondary school was horrible when I first went mainly because of the PE department but maybe it wasn't so unusual. It was a co-ed school and PE, Games, Swimming were all mixed.
There was a simple rule regarding PE lessons. If you were well enough to be at school and didn't have a note from home or your doctor to say you couldn't do PE, then you did PE whether you had brought your kit or not.
If you didn't have kit (or even just one item missing or incorrect style or colour etc.) then you did the lesson in your panties or knickers. Barefoot and topless, boys and girls alike. Once in year 10, girls were allowed to keep their bra or vests on (most girls chooses to kept their vests on) as well if they wanted to, but before year 10 this was strictly forbidden.
We also had PE Detentions. Anyone who misbehaved or didn't try hard enough would get given a PE detention and have to turn up after school to a PE Detention session, held once a week. The session had strict discipline (absolutely no talking) and consisted of a very tough workout. There was no PE kit for those taking part in these sessions, and everyone did it in their underwear, barefoot and topless, with the same exception for girls once in year 10 who could choose to wear bra or vests and knickers instead of just their knickers.
What is particularly harsh I think is that for those girls who were well developed by the end of year 9 it was especially embarrassing and, for some, uncomfortable to not be allowed to cover their breasts.
On the other hand, being the only girls wearing just a pair of briefs in a class where everyone else is wearing full kit is a powerful reminder to bring your kit next time. Also, the PE Detentions were so tough and horrible that everyone hated them, again given an incentive to try harder, not mess about or misbehave.

I agree with the latest posting by Petra. It is ironic that women's sports clothing has become less as seen in the latest sorts championships. Then on the football pitch for males, some times the shirt shorts and socks nearly cover all. Same with swimwear. It is ok for ladies to wear bikinis but there is a stigma when men wear "speedo" swimming briefs. Men are expected to wear stupid board shorts when swimming or on the beach which I find very uncomfortable. I know that some men look horrendous in swimming briefs, but in the same way some ladies figures do not suit minimalist swim suits but they still wear them. Having said the above I notice that when abroad i.e. Spain in particular, many men wear swimming trunks(briefs) without any inhibition. that is the only time I can also wear them.

No he wasn't, they wore polo shirts for indoor PE. Outdoors they had the choice of their polo shirts or a long-sleeved top.

It's a sad reflection on today's world when boys are not encouraged to become men. Being made to strip off to the waist throughout school demonstrated levels of physical development. I didn't know any girl who objecting to seeing boys regularly stripped off with sweat running down their bodies as was often the case. I know definitely didn't!! I worry the way boys are taught has been very much watered down and when something that encourages boys to concentrate on their physical appearance is stopped that's when problems begin. It's ironic when women's sportswear has become less, for boys/men it's the opposite.. crazy! Andrea, was your son expected to strip to the waist for PE?

When my son was at secondary school, his PE kit was similar to that described by Mr Dando, with all the items having the school logo on. The girls was the same except the school did not supply ankle socks and they had the choice of jogging bottoms rather than shorts if they preferred.
Although the school did have showers, they were rarely used, so I made sure he had deodorant spray in his kitbag!

Seems quite an excessive PE kit and they even regulate what socks are worn that's just ridiculous.

When I was in school most PE was done in gym knickers, vest and bare feet and we survived it was perfectly fine.

Tim,
To be honest I didn't take much notice of the boys stripping off to vest and pants before putting on their PE kit.
For the most part the boys ignored us too, until a few of my classmates started to develop during our last year at Primary.

Well, I suppose the school can make more money by charging 14 quid for a boy's polo shirt!
But seriously Robbie, you're quite right. There's no reason why they couldn't just do as my school did and make it clear that the PE kit is different for boys and girls. Are boys really so fragile that they couldn't cope with doing PE in shorts only?
We did PE bare chested (in the gym, at least) and to me it actually felt more masculine, to be stripped to the waist and wearing a different kit from the girls. And as we grew older and wanted to impress the girls with our bodies, it was a good incentive to work harder in PE and stay in shape.
I realise that's an unpopular approach nowadays... but this was only 25-30 years ago. How has the thinking changed so much?

A polo shirt.. What's wrong with either a thin vest or better still show their bare chest. No wonder boys lose their identity in today's feminist world. How effective is PE/Games if boys are not even made to sweat up? It was the minimum expected from us.

PE Kit
All pupils are expected to have the school P.E. Kit. This must be bought from school.
All Hallows polo shirt* : Gold with : Royal blue lettering
All Hallows shorts*
All Hallows blue football socks (boys)*
All Hallows blue P.E. ankle socks (girls)*
A note must be brought in to excuse any pupil from P.E. or shower

For the school year the costs for PE Kit are: PE Shirt (Boys and Girls) £14, Shorts £5 and Socks £4.

PE Kit for Year 7 starters is currently supplied by the school and is ordered at the July intake evening.

Graham, when I started secondary school it was common for boys to wear different coloured vests under their school shirts.

For our first PE lesson we got changed and a good few boys put their t-shirt on over their vests.

We were taken out onto the school field and lined up and one boy was singled out and made to take off his shirt and drop it on the ground which he did, upon seeing his vest the teacher shouted out "and get your vest off too!" that came off seconds later.

The rest of the class were told to do the same thing and within seconds a pile of discarded clothes lay on the ground.

We had a lecture about toughening up and were told in no uncertain terms no vests for gym work, x country runs, fitness work and tests which frequently done more outdoors
than the gym! Even football was played as shirts vs skins.

Andrea, how did you felt about seeing the boys strip off for PE/Games.

Andrea : My sister and I were both at single-sex Primary schools, so the issue of mixed changing didn't arise. This was in the early to mid '70s, too, but I don't renember any of my contemporaries wearing vests, even in winter. PE in the gym was always topless, and we had an open-plan changing-room, so anyone in a vest would have been quite conspicuous.

Graham,
This was in the early 1970s and vests tended to be worn for longer than is commonplace nowadays. I certainly tended to wear them in the colder months, but not always in summer. In my case the transition to a bra came at the start of my second year at Secondary.

The other thing that has changed since my schooldays is that there are more 'inbetween' options available for girls, such as half-vests, pull-on crop-tops and bralettes, whereas our first bras were scaled down version of those our mums wore.
Incidentally, did you and your sister go to single sex Primary schools, and if not up to what age did both sexes have to change together for PE?

Andrea - back in my school cricketing days, jockstraps were required kit for anyone in a school team, but boxes were only worn by batsmen and wicketkeeper. By the time I was 14 or so, virtually all of my class wwere wearing jockstraps for PE and all ordinary games-afternoon sports, including cricket, and we quite often wore them in lieu of underpants in hot weather. I don't think helmets for cricket had been thought up back then!

Your other comment about your friend needing bras as she had outgrown her vests made me wonder whether a direct transition from one to the other was typical of that era. My memory is that my sister stopped wearing vests before she started primary school, as did I, but didn't start wearing bras until the year she went to secondary school.

The Grocers, before it was turned into a comprehensive – and, ultimately, an academy with the sort of problems that never assailed the old school until it was rescued by one of the great educationalists of the day - was officially known as the Hackney Downs School.

The boys, incidentally, had to swim naked. They were banned from wearing trunks because the school thought that could adversely affect the processed water in the pool. There were rumours of boys being interfered with by masters but nothing more than rumours. It was a different age.