Burnley Grammar School

Mary, you said the following at the end of your comment,

"I suppose that some men's feelings about shirtless PE might have evolved with hindsight even if they were OK with it when they were boys? I find it interesting how differently something can be remembered depending on how much time has passed."

What exactly do you mean by this? You seem to be saying that there might be people on here who have rewritten their school history and who are now claiming to be bothered by something that they were not at the time. Well let me put you right.

Everything you described in your original comment a few days ago applied to me, almost perfectly infact. I was at school a touch before you, my comprehensive school was in the late seventies, I actually left in 1980. In our school gym for PE our boys class was only allowed to put on a pair of white shorts for the lesson. No tops, no trainers, no socks, not even our pants, it was the very basic classic shirtless & barefooted look without underwear, and I didn't enjoy the look one bit when it first hit me when I was twelve years of age. It was such an incredible sense of vulnerability, I didn't like my body much at that age anyway.

One of my mates had a pool party for his August birthday in the late seventies and I didn't go to avoid a number of girls in class he told me he had invited. This was a huge rubber inflatable back garden pool. He was very upset but I just pretended I'd forgotten as it was in the middle of August out of school time without us seeing each other as much as normal. I wanted to go but nothing would make me go when I knew certain girls would be there, ones I wasn't that friendly with in class and that I would be expected to join in and bring the trunks and get in the water. I knew if I went I would not be able to sit it out and stay dry, that in itself would be almost as bad. I simply could not volunteer to take my shirt off like that, even with my friends from class who we already shared PE with that way anyway. That's the difference between being made to do things and choosing to do them. So I missed what was probably a great party afternoon with friends and upset a close one in the process and lied about my no show.

I used to get really very nervous anticipating shirtless PE lessons at school to the point I sometimes felt slightly nauseous with a queasy stomach, so the thought of it actually gave me a real physical reaction at times. I also had this ever present fear that they might allow girls to join us and this fear lasted about a month into school before it became reality one afternoon, the girls shared the boys gym once a month. I've no idea if anyone knew what I really felt about it because I said nothing while often cringing inside from complete embarrassment when the girls joined us.

Now Mary you mentioned bantering with boys. What did you mean by this, what kind of things were you actually saying? I'm pleased someone else has picked up and quoted somebody else's comment about that, well done to them for that. In my case the banter, as you call it, didn't happen in the PE lesson, the teachers were too strict to allow much fooling about, but it came after PE, at break or even in other lessons when girls said things, not about me directly but about other boys or generally about us.

Obviously this all wore off after a while and things settled down into the ways of the school. My first six to nine months at secondary school were difficult and a large part of that difficulty arose around the subject of PE for some of the reasons I've given.

We also went and did PE outside without tops on from about April to July quite a lot even though we had athletics vests for that. I never liked sports day at school every summer, it was a recipe for potential humiliation in front of everyone in your life at that moment, your class, your teachers and if they came your family. I always wanted my family to stay away, the one year they didn't come I was somewhat relieved by that. We could at least wear our athletics vests for sports day, just white vests with a blue edging around the neck and arms but one year when I was I think fourteen or fifteen it was a hot summers day with blazing sunshine and our PE teacher made a snap decision that we needed to keep ourselves as cool as possible and told us all not to wear vests and remain shirtless, which had the effect of putting that "fear or flight" response through my veins which is a well known stress response to situations you want to avoid, almost like panic, which is not too strong a word actually. It really is what some boys were like at school Mary, honestly, and yes it may be an irrational reaction to a situation but it's fact for many.

I had a similar reaction on joining secondary school when showers became a thing. I'd do my utmost to avoid the things until it just became impossible but I remember lots of boys at school being just the same and not liking a PE teacher forcing you to strip naked the moment you came back from the PE lesson and trying to avoid them and hope the teacher hadn't noticed they hadn't showered, much of the time they did notice though, they had keen eyesight these PE teachers. So I developed a coping mechanism to get on with it the best I could.

One thing I used to do before PE was go and sit in the toilets, shut the door and do some deep breathing to myself and say quietly in my head, "Calm, collected, confident" and hope that helped.

My favourite sport was cricket but we did almost none, outside it seemed to be down to the personal tastes of the PE teacher in charge what we did much of the time and they didn't ask for any feedback about what any of us might actually like to do. Everything about PE was slanted in favour of a certain few predictable things to the exclusion of all the rest.

Comment by: Sally-Ann on 25th June 2025 at 20:40
'One of my favourite films at that time was Gregory's Girl and there's a bit in that film where the character Gregory played by John Gordon Sinclair is in the changing room when Dorothy, played by Dee Hepburn walks in on him with no shirt on and he self consciously sticks his fingers over his nipples quite quickly to preserve a bit of his modesty. It's slightly comic I know and I did laugh at that at the time in the cinema with a couple of girlfriends I went to see it with in about 1981 by which time I was a secondary school girl and noticing boys a lot, you would look at literally any boy without a top on, whatever he looked like.'



Hello Sally-Ann, I've never seen that film although it's been on TV so many times down the years and I even knew that scene you picked up on. I thought I would see if it was online and watch it, which I did late last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. I could only find a full version with subtitles though. For anyone who doesn't know what you are talking about here it is;

https://youtu.be/hkS6iCp9QIo?feature=shared&t=1638


Our school would not only never have let a girl play on a boys football team but they would not have let a girl play football at all, but I never saw any girls who looked like they had the slightest interest in doing so anyway, although I think women's football has been hyped up more than it's genuine popularity as ITV seems to push it onto TV pretending it has a mass audience when it doesn't.

Comment by: Ronnie on 25th June 2025 at 20:03

"....Your school sounds rotten to the core Alan. Have any ex-pupils set up any online chats with memories of that school, such as Facebook groups or similar places to recall past events, people and places. My school has one and many schools do seem to have, with associated photos of teachers or the school as well as former pupils"

Towards the end of Friends Reunited, Ronnie, I checked the site and there was never a trace, which I supposed summed up what we thought about the place, and all those who went before us (we were the last of them), I did though keep in touch with a few of my friends. My best mate who I met on our first day at school died just after Xmas in 2022, he had had it worse than me at school as he had been a bit tubby. Another died in 2020 an early casualty of Covid, a third, the one who was frankly groomed and interfered with by our vile P.E. teacher, became alcoholic - I can't say that was the cause, but I suspect it played a part, quite a large part, as he wasn't that way inclined. Essentially he was good at football and our teacher gave him "extra tuition" outside school. Sadly I haven't seen or heard of him for some years now .

The building, to answer somebody earlier, whose name escapes me, was constructed in 1898, so was a prime example of late Victorian building. It was inadequate for normal purposes today, but probably not that unusual in a poor part of London at that time. Most of the area was redeveloped, the good and the bad in the early 1990s,, and though none of the lads were "problem kids" - no knives or drug users - we were, I think, considered low achievers, based on our junior schools, therefore the dump was "good enough" for us. I have no ill will about that, nor did any of my friends as I recall. we just got on with it. The thing that really bugged me was the two pervert teachers. I don't think it ever occurred to the authorities that the teachers might have been as much of the problem as the pupils. The junior school staff did not bully like the secondary teachers, but they were dull, stolid and unimaginative. You have to stimulate young minds, they didn't have the gift. The highspot of our week was a Radio 4 schools programme on Thursday afternoons.

For those who thought "Anthony's" explanation for his whims reasonable, (i.e. Mark and Neil) I would just say, as I did to him directly, that since he insists on showers after every lesson, there is no reason at all why he cannot allow tops to be worn. Too many schools are too indulgent in catering to the whims of P.E. teachers, (especially), on ego trips. I would also add that very few eleven year olds sweat as profusely as he makes out, to justify his policy.

I wonder if Mark and Neil would care to comment, because you can be fairly sure "sir" won't.

Hi Mary,

Wow. Thank Christ I didn't go to your school. I would have been horrified to be thrown into a mixed class at that age half-naked. Even if none of the boys you knew truly felt bad about it it was still sexist, discriminatory and just plain wrong. But through a lifetime I have come to see how it is always, always boys and men on the sharp end of this kind of gender discrimination.

Did any of you girls ever question that reason for the PE kit disparity? You must have been curious about it.

And what was the justification for the bare feet thing? Given that you girls were allowed footwear? Health and safety - and broken glass - were just as big issues in the early '90s as they are today. And in the gym, where the girls were allowed trainers, well there was no justification at all.

'What I find interesting is that, despite this strict dress code, the boys I was in lessons with didn’t seem remotely bothered. If anything, most seemed confident and completely at ease. '

At my school, if anything, it was the other way round. It was the girls who had to wear those notorious gym knickers that were standard for the time, while we boys always got to wear tops and footwear. They always seemed to take it in their stride and always seemed to be laughing and joking. None of the girls seemed to mind it but I bet some of them absolutely did. It will have been the same with the boys you knew. Some of them had no inhibitions. Others were able to take the embarrassment of it in their stride. Others, like me, would have hated it but they wouldn't have shown their discomfort.

Girls are raised having their feelings cherished and nurtured while boys are still taught to disregard theirs. If as a boy you voice discomfort or vulnerability you are breaking the code and letting the side down, and you will not receive the support of your male classmates.

'In fact, it appeared to me that the boys were simply used to being treated that way. None of them ever questioned it, and there was never any fuss about what they had to wear – or not wear. It was as if that was just how things were, and they accepted it without a second thought.'

Of course they didn't question it! They would have been punished. You can trawl back through the recent posts and here and read what happened to boys who dared to challenge their schools' PE practices. It emphatically did not mean they were happy about it!

You have answered your own question. We all had to accept experiences we didn't want to at secondary school.

Mary, if those boys you remember had been allowed football shirts and trackie bottoms and trainers while you girls had to wear crop-vests and gym knickers and go barefoot . . . how do you think that might have made you feel? Such minimal kit would have been very comfortable and practical, after all.

The fact that so many men here have expressed genuine discomfort and humiliation about topless PE is surely utterly self-evident. The reluctance from so many female posters here to accept that boys had feeling of discomfort is actually pretty disconcerting.

What a shame that your PE teachers didn't think that comfort and practicality might have benefited your male classmates as well.

Good to see a lot more female input to mix it up a bit more from just the men.

Sally-Ann, isn't that amusing, they were keen in PE to make sure you didn't reveal too much while the boys were expected to reveal the lot up top. Boys bellies okay, girls not. It makes you wonder why a school that held that type of attitude didn't ask boys to stick a vest or T-shirt on doesn't it. You have to love schools when it comes to odd rules and getting tape measures out on clothing. The same happened at ours with girls uniform skirt lengths when some girls tried it on with shorter ones.

I think many of the gentlemen on here who went to school in past decades have every right to feel slightly aggrieved if the teacher was forcing them to strip down well below their personal comfort level and not letting them wear a top in reasonable circumstances. In some ways girls like myself had the opposite problem.

It's funny really, I remember sharing the middle school PE classes in the seventies with lots of boys in my class who never seemed to have tops on but it barely registered as anything anyone thought about as far as I know. But I do know that when I was in senior school we came across boys without tops with bare bodies sometimes in parts of PE where girls and boys mingled around each other and you could tell who the awkward boys were quite easily by that age if you could read reactions well.

One of my favourite films at that time was Gregory's Girl and there's a bit in that film where the character Gregory played by John Gordon Sinclair is in the changing room when Dorothy, played by Dee Hepburn walks in on him with no shirt on and he self consciously sticks his fingers over his nipples quite quickly to preserve a bit of his modesty. It's slightly comic I know and I did laugh at that at the time in the cinema with a couple of girlfriends I went to see it with in about 1981 by which time I was a secondary school girl and noticing boys a lot, you would look at literally any boy without a top on, whatever he looked like.

But here's the rub, whilst the boys in my school were clearly being told to strip down quite basic to nothing but their bare skin on top, girls for example could not do the equivalent of turning up in something like a bikini bra or crop top, just like Mary says here. We had to wear a proper fully covered short sleeved top, either a t-shirt of polo top, and a bare midriff exposing our belly buttons and lower tummy's was never allowed, while the boys at school were being told to have the full bare chest upper body, belly button and nipples out, our navels were prohibited!

There was no difference when it came to showers, girls just like the boys had to do it, together in a group, completely naked under supervision, so on that there was a level playing field with boys at school. Whilst many girls disliked being made to shower enormously, I was rather more relaxed about it. I used to wonder what the boys all looked like in their shower while we were doing ours.

Many boys clearly were less than keen for that but had to, whilst there were girls like me at school who would have jumped at the chance to wear a bra style crop top and show a bit more than we were allowed to. Even our shorts had to be a certain length down our thigh and were sometimes measured if it looked like they were too high up.

I previously assumed you were a male Chris G.

Your school sounds rotten to the core Alan. Have any ex-pupils set up any online chats with memories of that school, such as Facebook groups or similar places to recall past events, people and places. My school has one and many schools do seem to have, with associated photos of teachers or the school as well as former pupils.

to Chris G:
No, absolutely not. We girls were not allowed to bare more skin than necessary, and honestly, it didn’t even cross our minds to try stripping down in an equivalent way. We were brought up to be decent – there were clear expectations about modesty, and stepping outside those boundaries would have felt both inappropriate and attention-seeking. Crop-tops or sports bras? That would have been unthinkable in our context, even if someone had been bold enough. The flexibility we had was in terms of comfort and practicality – being allowed to wear proper trainers or choosing between T-shirts and tracksuit bottoms – but it certainly didn’t extend to revealing more.

Comment by Mary 24th June

And the rule for boys never changed: they always had to be shirtless, wearing only plain white shorts, regardless of their age. Even for outdoor lessons, they weren’t allowed any footwear – just white shorts, bare feet, and a bare chest.

Meanwhile, we girls had far more flexibility: we could wear T-shirts, tracksuit bottoms or shorts, and proper trainers.

Mary, might that flexibility have extended to less-covering items such as crop-tops, sports bras or even ordinary everyday bras, if someone had been bold enough to push the envelope??

Outside toilets at school Alan, barely legal surely, what year did you leave school, sometime in the 1880's.

No school sports day at a secondary school, that's really poor. There was a PE based sports day every single summer I was at school from the time I started until I left. Even if you didn't like PE some of them could be good fun, especially in my primary school where we even used to do things not strictly associated with PE as such, like throwing tiny beanbags at balanced tin cans or doing things with multi coloured hoops, as well as traditional things like running races.

Were there a lot of members of the public viewing your PE in the public park there then Alan? I can't believe they made you go there in bare chests too, technically out of the school boundary.

I get what people such as Anthony are saying and he has a good explanation that is hard to argue with in the way it was put.

That's a really good and thorough explanation of why the use of school showers after PE lessons was and is still in some places deemed necessary Anthony.

Comment by: Anthony Hayman on 25th June 2025 at 03:30


You do realise, Anthony, that verrucas can often be picked up when bare feet are common, such as in swimming pools?

As for the rest, as you insist they shower anyway, what would be the harm in letting them wear tops?. If the parents are well off, you could even have your little crest placed on them I wonder if the teachers are as clean as they expect their pupils to be? - are you all showering after a hectic day at school?

Comment by: Russ on 24th June 2025 at 21:29

".......I'm really surprised you were getting corporal punishment in the form of the cane so much because you've already stated you were at school during the 1980's haven't you. Did they consider you disruptive, and did many others you knew in your class/year receive corporal punishment for things? That seems very harsh for simple truancy and it doesn't sound like it worked anyway. During the earlier end of the 1970's such punishment didn't seem to feature much, it was threatened but you would have had to be a serious troublemaker or do something massive to find yourself facing a cane in our school, so I'm surprised years later than me and almost up to abolition you received it for just truanting off lessons. A sensible school would absolutely be trying to find out why you were doing it and wanting to know, especially if you were doing it at the same time each week.

Was the park you mentioned your school's makeshift playing fields and where you did PE lessons because your school didn't have its own land in an urban London area, I think you mentioned something along those lines before didn't you. School's without playing fields, not good. So where did you do your school sports day then, in the local park! Don't tell me they made you go and do PE down the local park all shirtless, was that why you were avoiding it. One thing I can't argue over was the magnificence of our school playing fields which were substantial with their very own groundsman, not just a caretaker......."

Ross, I am afraid at our school, violence was a part of life, both from pupils and teachers. We had one lad, by the name of David Cooper, who spent a couple of years at borstal or approved school, or whatever establishment they used at the time, and by the time he was 21 was serving a stretch in prison for GBH. He, like most of us, was caned at school at one time or another, and I can say in all seriousness that never a day went past when whiteboard erasers were not whizzing through the air, or a ruler put across the knuckles, or a slipper or cane wasn't used for some transgression. Truancy was considered the most heinous of offences, next to theft. Corporal punishment existed till the June of the year I left (in July), because there was starting to be a condemnation in the press of the practice, and public opinion .was turning against it in a big way.

Please don't think I am being condescending - I really don't mean to be - but I think lads and men that had schools like your own with groundsmen, cannot understand what schools like ours were like - there was nothing temporary about the park - it was the way it had been done for years, since it's inception, the frontage of the school (built in the 1890s) , which was divided from the pavement with green metal fences, like those used in municipal parks, was merely concrete, and that served as a playground and an assembly point had a fire broken out (and I often wished it had). The park was all there was by way of outside facilities, and we were lucky in that we didn't have sports days - the general public got enough amusement out of us on Wednesdays. P.E. was a punishment at our school, not an "enjoyable" experience, even for the more sports minded lads, It was a miserable disgusting situation, but our school had been scheduled for demolition for many years before I went there - so little or no money was spent on it. There were outdoor lavatories, for example, which you avoided like the plague if you had any sense, and the caretaker might put a drop of Jeyes Fluid down them every Monday, whether he thought it needed it or not, but that was about all. I can honestly say I never ventured into either of the two W.C. cubicles in all the years I was there. They were near the car park at the back, the facilities were appalling for everyone, It didn't help that the council in the area was controlled by the same party for ever, with the same old hangers on keeping it propped up, and they were more interested in the more successful schools. Somebody wrote on here recently that he had written to his sons school and they just wrote back and told him they would not respond to any further communications. That was the attitude of our school. Of course, this was all pre-internet, and I sincerely hope that these days they would be named and shamed with alacrity.

I can and do accept if you go to a school that was nearly a hundred years old in a poor, decrepit, run down town, you have to accept limitations, but what I can't and don't accept is the piss poor teachers we had to put up with, two of whom, as I have said before were definite perverts, however infirm our headmaster was, he should have had more control over his staff - but his deputy was even worse. I freely admit for years after I left I had nightmares about the place. Of course, like all of usmon here, we just got on with it,and never went home and complained. It is over 40 years ago now - even the Tesco store that replaced it when it was levelled in the late 1980s looks a bit down at heel now, but then again so many parts of London seems to be covered in grime, even today.



Comment by: Mark on 24th June 2025 at 22:24



"......Alan, did your PE lesson take place in the (public?) park and was that shirtless?....."

Yes I am afraid so Mark, nearly every Wednesday afternoon. It was humiliating, boring and miserable. The only non shirtless Wednesdays were football weeks, which I could tolerate even though I loathed the game. We knew on Tuesday afternoon (one of the indoor lessons) whether or not it was football,next day, so I could make myself scarce on non football days, which were what were described as "general exercise days" mainly running on the spot, running round the park etc

Okay, let me lay my cards straight on the table. I'm a physical education teacher since 2001.

My view on showering, which we continue to compel at our school and for good reasons which I will explain.

Areas such as the feet, the groin, and the underarms are particularly prone to bacterial and fungal growth, making it vital to cleanse thoroughly after exercise of the type done in school P.E lessons. Skipping a quick soapy shower even for just a few hours after vigorous physical activity can result in rashes, athlete's foot, and other skin problems, especially in the young. Moreover, maintaining personal hygiene after physical activity can significantly boost self-confidence, and it is especially important for adolescent boys to become more aware of their appearance and body image and this is best done with exposure of themselves and to each other, and that is why our school insists that boys come to their gym classes with bare chests, school shorts with the crest on them and we prefer bare feet during gym as a rule because it is far healthier and reduces sweat there. Exceptions to this are not generally permitted, we expect the same from everyone.

In addition to hygiene and skin health, immediately showering in warm water after physical activity also aids in muscle recovery and relaxation and can help soothe tired muscles, improve circulation, and reduce the risk of soreness or stiffness after intense school P.E sessions.

What I've just said here is what I say to newcomers to school when they start and we introduce them to P.E and our expectations from them, so they are all given a clear explanation of why things happen and are required in the way they are.

My all boys grammar school changing room had the places to sit, hook up your gear and the communal showers, but also had a row of urinals along a wall too, open to all, and which I always struggled to use, silly as that might sound. I could jump in the showers after PE quite easily but if I wanted a pee I couldn't do it in front of anyone else, yet some boys used to be in our changing room and walk up to the urinals hanging off the wall and stand in front of them naked and not even touch their penis and begin urinating away. I always had to find a proper toilet cubicle to have a private pee to myself.

I certainly cannot imagine where you ever got the idea that all boys are easy going over taking their shirts off in childhood Hilary. I always found my own school gym asking me to do this a rather difficult ask when it first started happening and it took a long time for me to grow into actually thinking nothing of it and clearly some others never did grow into it. I don't think most of us who are self conscious enjoy our traits it gives us, some last a lifetime, I was at school in 1961 until 1967 and still cannot easily use a public open urinal if others are present but I could probably just about manage a communal shower if the need arose even at my age now.

I was given the belt as corporal punishment for not bringing the correct PE kit to school in the late sixties, on top of doing it in my underpants. I was also given the belt for attempted shower evasion, something given out a lot where I went. Most boys in my class were belted for something and PE gave many good reasons to be belted, hands or backside, or sometimes both.

Cheers Terry for the acknowledgement of my post.

You're bang on. Half our run was suburban streets with uneven pavement along the way, which had this knack of making you strip up and fall flat on your face very easily if you were not careful with a bit of slab sticking out catching you. If you did fall you had no protection and I grazed an elbow and wrist with a trip once. The knees just about managed to stay untouched.

My main man PE teacher was a shirtless PE fanatic that's for sure - other people's shirtless, not his own. As for the car he would drive off, we used to hope he had a prang on the way. A couple of his tyres got let down one day, the culprit was never caught but it was strongly suspected it was something to do with preventing him doing his cross country drive ahead of us, it was on the same day it happened. Nobody ever admitted anything though. I still remember the car he drove, a light blue Austin Maxi, a very teacher of the 70s kind of motor.

Mary, can you exemplify the "light-hearted banter about the boys’ physiques" you reminisced engaging in?

Danny C's old comment already provided the other perspective on banter: "fun and especially the term "banter" can actually mean bullying, intimidation, teasing and just all round unpleasantness. It's not always just meaning a bit of good fun and jesting in good humour, far from it. The very word "banter" is that oh so affable sounding word that caught bullies just love to use as their defence time and again. When Louise mentioned the word "banter" I related it strongly as a negative and far from good natured word from a girl I was at school with when sharing PE and drama classes with her in a barechested state that enabled her to pass highly personal comment and innuendo that were far from fun or "banter" to me. We made contact again at 40 for the first time since 16 and I brought her behaviour up at one point and she literally didn't even have any concept of the way her behaviour impacted others like me and the old "banter" defence got wheeled out. My only regret is that I didn't have the confidence at the time to fire the right words back with some quick thinking at the time rather than allow myself to get flustered and clearly red faced which led to more "banter".

Mary, nice of you to contribute your interesting perspective.

You are right about girls having more freedom of expression in clothing. It's always more limited for boys, and men for that matter. At school in secondary I was one of those classes of gym boys only allowed our navy shorts, the bare chest and feet, mainly with other boys only but not always, girls did intrude now and again with us, and wore a variety of tops, shorts and even tiny mini skirts. At work I always had to wear a certain look, dark trousers, a shirt, a tie and even my socks had to be plain and dark and not light colours or striped even though they couldn't be seen much, while the women could wear a variety of outfits to show off their personalities, men just constrained as adults, just like at school in PE.

Every school and class is different. Maybe you were a bunch of great girls, or just a class that gelled together well, or had a great few teachers who put you all at ease. So many factors make the outcome. I knew others in class who disliked PE done in a mandatory bare chest for sure, it was no secret but nobody would think to say a word to the PE teacher, it wouldn't have changed much I think anyway, anymore than anyone who tried to get out of a shower ever succeeded in that, they didn't.

I suppose if you've ever read about suicide stories and friends and family say the person didn't give any clue or suggestion about what they went and did and they were all deeply shocked, well it's the same to a less serious extent with this subject I think. Men on here have come and said they managed to hide their feelings about all kinds in school, paradoxically is actually easy I think to pass off as alright about something you are not okay about, certainly when you've done it a few times, and many men on here did this for years.

Mary, if you look back on here about a year ago there was a modern day young current teacher of PE from a school whose name I've forgotten named Nathan who takes PE lessons nowadays with boys in bare chests sometimes and he did a poll and found out that a quarter of his boys were not keen or disliked doing PE that way, which sounded about right to me. Take it from me, I'm sure your own school was broadly similar, I'd bet money on it.

You are right though, in those days going back when people like you and me were in school, like most of the others here, we did accept it as the way it was and how it was for boys, but it didn't mean we had to like it. Also, many on here have said that being mandatory shirtless in the school gym felt completely different to being in your bare chest for the swimming lessons, and I agree, one of those weird quirks.

One thing I am surprised about is how there are not as many pro-shirtless PE guys on here nowadays, other than a few of the PE teachers we once had grace these pages! Many comments seem to come from people in school after 1970 nowadays here.


Alan, did your PE lesson take place in the (public?) park and was that shirtless?

Comment by: Alan on 24th June 2025 at 16:54
I have to admit I frequently truanted on Wednesday afternoon's between 13 and 16 because most weeks we had to spend the whole bloody afternoon in the park, and I couldn't stand being seen by the public as they passed by. It was bad enough in school, but out in public it was worse. I was caught sometimes, and I got the cane a few times for it.



I'm really surprised you were getting corporal punishment in the form of the cane so much because you've already stated you were at school during the 1980's haven't you. Did they consider you disruptive, and did many others you knew in your class/year receive corporal punishment for things? That seems very harsh for simple truancy and it doesn't sound like it worked anyway. During the earlier end of the 1970's such punishment didn't seem to feature much, it was threatened but you would have had to be a serious troublemaker or do something massive to find yourself facing a cane in our school, so I'm surprised years later than me and almost up to abolition you received it for just truanting off lessons. A sensible school would absolutely be trying to find out why you were doing it and wanting to know, especially if you were doing it at the same time each week.

Was the park you mentioned your school's makeshift playing fields and where you did PE lessons because your school didn't have its own land in an urban London area, I think you mentioned something along those lines before didn't you. School's without playing fields, not good. So where did you do your school sports day then, in the local park! Don't tell me they made you go and do PE down the local park all shirtless, was that why you were avoiding it. One thing I can't argue over was the magnificence of our school playing fields which were substantial with their very own groundsman, not just a caretaker.

Comment by: Terry on 24th June 2025 at 13:30



"l....... I think the trick with being self conscious, especially when it came to the inescapable showers at school was to try hard not to show it even if you were. I think most boys did manage it, like you say, boys can hide things quite well when they want or need to. Did you manage to or was it obvious how you felt in front of your fellow class? In my own school I remember one or two boys who could not pull this off and there were always elements in class who were keen to pray on such open insecurity, and the teachers didn't worry who was insecure that was obvious. I can't think of anything I would have considered so awful I would have truant school to avoid it........."

I always managed to disguise it myself Terry, except for the anger I felt for our teacher,m gawping at us.. I also I have to admit I frequently truanted on Wednesday afternoon's between 13 and 16 because most weeks we had to spend the whole bloody afternoon in the park, and I couldn't stand being seen by the public as they passed by. It was bad enough in school, but out in public it was worse. I was caught sometimes, and I got the cane a few times for it, but the thing I remember is that, despite this being the only lesson I truanted from, it never occurred to the headmaster or his deputy, to try to find out why, or to make a connection, but they were not that bright anyway.

Hi everyone,

I’ve been reading through a few of the threads on here about PE lessons – particularly the ones where men talk about having to do PE shirtless and I thought I’d share my perspective from the other side, so to speak.
At my comprehensive school in the late eighties/early nineties, PE was always mixed – from the youngest year groups right up to the oldest. And the rule for boys never changed: they always had to be shirtless, wearing only plain white shorts, regardless of their age. Even for outdoor lessons, they weren’t allowed any footwear – just white shorts, bare feet, and a bare chest. Meanwhile, we girls had far more flexibility: we could wear T-shirts, tracksuit bottoms or shorts, and proper trainers.
What I find interesting is that, despite this strict dress code, the boys I was in lessons with didn’t seem remotely bothered. If anything, most seemed confident and completely at ease. There was no sign that they felt uncomfortable or embarrassed – even in mixed classes. It just seemed normal back then – part of the school routine.
In fact, it appeared to me that the boys were simply used to being treated that way. None of them ever questioned it, and there was never any fuss about what they had to wear – or not wear. It was as if that was just how things were, and they accepted it without a second thought.
Sometimes, we girls would have a bit of light-hearted banter about the boys’ physiques but it was always in good humour, and the boys tool it well. There was a lot of laughing and joking, and never any sign that anyone felt targeted or upset.
So when I read comments here from men saying they hated it or felt humiliated, I have to admit I’m a bit surprised. That’s not how it came across at the time. Of course, I completely respect that people may have felt differently on the inside, or that they’ve reflected on it in a different light later on. But from a girl’s point of view back then, it really didn’t seem to be an issue for the boys.
I guees I’m just genuinely curious. I suppose that some men's feelings about shirtless PE might have evolved with hindsight even if they were OK with it when they were boys? I find it interesting how differently something can be remembered depending on how much time has passed.

Grant, I think most of us probably spent at least one birthday doing a PE lesson between the age of 11 and 16 and possibly not thinking it was the best way to spend that day. I always wanted to take the day off school when it was my birthday so I could do what I wanted. I remember some people used to try and keep their birthday quite from everyone just incase of what happened to you, or something else. My mate George in school was once fully egged and floured on his birthday by some boys in the toilets at lunchtime, I didn't think that kind of thing was very amusing and just seemed nasty. I was given the bumps at least twice in primary school, the best thing was not to try and resist it and just go along with it and hope they didn't drop you hard back on the ground.

I can imagine the annoyance with a teacher like your Grant, I agree, it seems like thumbing his nose up at you to drive the course and not do it with you, and sticking a coat on in a car while he got you lot shirtless for the run doesn't play well does it. You said you went out the front gates and watched him drive off, so you were going off like that down what sounds like mainly residential or urbanised roads?

Yours Truly, I think the trick with being self conscious, especially when it came to the inescapable showers at school was to try hard not to show it even if you were. I think most boys did manage it, like you say, boys can hide things quite well when they want or need to. Did you manage to or was it obvious how you felt in front of your fellow class? In my own school I remember one or two boys who could not pull this off and there were always elements in class who were keen to pray on such open insecurity, and the teachers didn't worry who was insecure that was obvious. I can't think of anything I would have considered so awful I would have truanted school to avoid it.

Hi Louise,

I'm very sorry to hear that happened to you. This is why today's generation of teachers are micromanaged up the bahokey by Ofsted, because in the past when they had leeway they abused it.

Yes I really did truant. This from a previously timid, squeaky-clean boy who had always been anxious to stay out of trouble. After several weeks my dad found me out and dragged me up the school and demanded a meeting with the headmaster. To be fair the headmaster was laid back and humane about it all but I got the message: I couldn't get away with it anymore. After that I started coping. Not just with the games and the showers but with the bullying as well. It was possibly the single worst decision I have ever made in my life, but that is outside the bounds of this discussion.

I remember teachers like the one you describe, screeching and shouting at the children in their charge. It was par for the course in the 1970s and '80s and no parent seemed to challenge it. I stated in a post a good while back of the teacher who locked a boy in a cupboard in his first day at school because he wouldn't stop crying for his mum. I don't know how she got away with that. If it had been my son I would have broken her arm.

I remember struggling to fit in at a young age and somehow all too often still getting on the wrong side of these screeching harridans that constituted the teaching staff.

The joke of it all was they were christians. catholics, no less. Well. That's what they said they were. At that young age I interpreted christianity as kindness but they were so unkind.

Would it surprise you to read I have been a lifelong atheist?

One of the worst moments I ever remember at school was a PE lesson in October 1977, the month after I had started at secondary school in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne and which also happened to coincide with my 13th birthday. Our teacher gave us our first taste of a school cross country and made every single one of the boys from a number of combined classes get outside stripped to bare chests like we did the gym, and it was not a warm day at all. In our case I remember many boys suggesting tops and being told it wasn't that cold outside, but it was, it was the week before half term and the clocks going back.

I was so angry when the PE teacher assembled us all in the school carpark without our tops on, black shorts, socks and trainers, bare chests, something like 40 or 50 lads, and stick a massive coat on and get in his car in front of us all and saying he was driving ahead of where we were going to run to and he would be waiting the other end with his stopwatch for us all, some couple of miles away. We all started running out the school gates and he drove past us smiling and off into the distance along the road and this swine had got us all shirtless and exposed to the elements. It was like a gigantic piss take. The teacher with us on the run was just telling us to stop complaining, alright for him, he was in a t-shirt.

When we ran the couple of miles and saw the PE teacher standing by his car with the stopwatch he called out our times. Then it all went into reverse and after we'd all got there, he drove off back to school again and we had to run back the same way to be timed again on arrival in the school car park before he shouted the usual end of PE catchphrase - 'right you lot, off and in the showers' where I was given birthday suit birthday bumps like kids used to do to each other in school in those days if they found out it was your birthday.

If anyone ever asked what my least favourite birthday was I've a quick answer, the first day of my teenage years on my 13th birthday. It was no fun at all, and there were many more PE lessons just like that over the next couple of years.

Comment by: Mark on 23rd June 2025 at 02:31


Hi Mark, no it wasn't me either. I did find it incredible that having said she didn't see any problems boys might have had, she didn't realise that boys would keep any kind of discomfiture to themselves and would hardly tell other pupils about them. I only post under my own name and with my contact details intact.

Hi Mark,

Nope, that wasn't me. I have posted my own response to Hilary, which you can read. Alan can speak for himself of course but I see no reason why he would choose to post under a different name in this one instance.

That poster's name suggests that they were triggered by what Hilary said and in the moment they opted for the first name to mind because the message was more important than the name. Kind of like while I opted to call myself Yours Truly.

Hi Hilary,

Your school years were 1974 till 1984? Do you mean you didn't have to start school till you were six?

It was a big deal for those boys you remember because it was humiliating for them. They were made to be nearly naked then forced in that state to share a gym with girls. What about this is difficult for you to understand?

Of course those boys you shared the gym with never said a word about it! They didn't have a choice. Communal showers at age eleven was the worst experience of my life till that point. I never raised a word in protest because our gym teacher seemed physically menacing. It emphatically did not mean I was okay with it. Why is this so hard for people on here, and especially, seemingly, women, to grasp?

If you ask me, stripping teenage boys to nothing more than a pair of shorts and then forcing them into a gym shared with girls who will inevitably be wearing more clothing is as insensitive as it gets. Personally, I was always allowed to wear a top in both primary and secondary school and It wasn't till I started reading this forum that I found out how rare that was for boys in the 1980s.

Also, numerous other previous commentators on here have testified to the ready use of the slipper on boys in PE lessons back then, a thing that you girls were privileged to be spared. Of course the boys you knew weren't going to object when the only likely outcome was a sore bum.

The fact that so many men on here have cited bad memories of bare chested PE, with or without girls present is surely evidence enough that boys did not feel comfortable with this. How much more evidence do you need?

As to those boys you remember whipping their tops off at the end of the day, I remember them too. I also remember the girls predominantly doing indoor PE barefoot and we can all witness girls today in the shortest uniform skirts possible. The key word here is, choice. It's their decision to be that way, not forced on them. Which is how it should be.

Boys in particular do not easily own up to feelings of insecurity. It's the things they don't talk about that you have to try to observe.

Did you really think boys had no issues with showers? Boys conceal everything from a macho instinct, which is the side of them you saw. There was a previous poster here who made the pithy observation that the only groups in our society forced to undergo communal showering are prisoners, people in the armed services . . . and children from the age of eleven. Just as we are becoming self-conscious about our bodies.

I have to emphasise that girls almost always got it easier regarding showers. At my school girls had shower partitions while for us boys it was bare balls all together, which, I gather, was the general trend in the 1980s. Plenty of other male respondents here have stated how only the boys were made to shower at their school. Again, we did it because we had to. Not because it was okay.

You're so right about your mum not standing over you in the bath at fifteen but your teacher still doing so!



As you say it was a very unforgiving time. A young, vulnerable age at which we were all just striving to survive at all costs. Youth shouldn't be like that but, you know, whatever.

Boys don't talk to each other about the things that make us unhappy, we bury them. Okay? We didn't talk to each other about the showers afterwards, we buried it! I think women are generally dismissive of mens' emotional issues. That women can be capable of prejudice is that last standing cultural taboo in the western world. But you do have them and I make no apology for telling you that. Every time I have brought this up here I have been answered with silence, and I don't expect any more from you.


I don't think adolescent girls should be ,made to shower. I also don't think adolescent boys should be made to shower.

"I never knew that many boys ever found school PE with no shirts a problem" - really Hilary, are you sure? I find that naive in the extreme. You must have been surrounded by some very confident boys your age at school if you think this, as you've said you shared many such classes.

I can't really work out why you would think that. Many boys at school are awkward and shy around girls at those ages when they are fully clothed in the full school uniform, or anywhere else for that matter where they might meet and come into contact with girls. So it sure as the sun rises goes that a lot of boys thrust bare chested into gym lessons in the company of girls at school suffered embarrassment or simple awkward and self conscious sensations when the choice to do so was not theirs, and the same would be the case today too.

"Responding to Hilary" that sounded like a comment from you Alan, am I correct and you put some of your comment in the wrong box? Or maybe it was Yours Truly who did that? It seems familiar as both of you have cited previous posters on here before in evidence. They were good quote picks actually.

Mitch, please don't mind my asking, but would you be willing to share one or two general recollections of your career, or of your own schooldays?

I only ask having read, with interest, other people's experiences recounted on this site (including comments from Christine Sanderson, a retired schools inspector, drawing on her professional knowledge) and occasionally having noted some of my own childhood memories. Please don't think I am prying. Did you work in primary or secondary schools?