Burnley Grammar School

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Burnley Grammar School
Burnley Grammar School
Year: 1959
Views: 1,409,715
Item #: 1607
There's pleny of room in the modern-styled gymnasium for muscle developing, where the boys are supervised by Mr. R. Parry, the physical education instruction.
Source: Lancashire Life Magazine, December 1959

Comment by: Tony on 3rd April 2024 at 12:56

I'd suggest that the 80 year old whose been on the run for 27 years must certainly be gaga, the term used here, simply for the fact he came back into the country through Heathrow and thought he wasn't going to get picked up just because 27 years had gone by. The law never forgets absconders like that.

I also agree with you Alan, I don't know full details of his story but I have no sympathy at all and what you say I agree with every word actually, you might be pleased to know! I suspect that in cases such as this there are far more quiet victims who never come forward and say anything at all. I'm reminded of a friend I had who had a term getting secretly bullied by two boys at school and was so ashamed he would not tell anyone because he thought it reflected badly on him and made him look weak and pathetic.

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Comment by: Alan on 3rd April 2024 at 11:32

It occurs to me that a lot of readers will not be aware of the case Tim and myself were discussing. At the risk of being accused of trawling the newspapers again, I append one report:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/richard-burrows-most-wanted-fugitive-arrested-heathrow-london-thailand-b1148877.html


Offences in a childrens home - how low can you get?. Those kids had problems already. It's even worse than at school - at least you can go home - these children WERE "at home". Those men and women will now be in their sixties. those who have survived..

Interesting that the accused had been in Thailand - given that country's reputation with the likes of Gary Glitter. I assume it was a bit like the Ronnie Biggs case - went on the run for years, then, when the money ran out, and health problems came along, they both decided to return home for free treatment.

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Comment by: Newton on 3rd April 2024 at 03:20

Almost everyone showed reluctance about heading into the showers at school when I first faced them in 1980 and if they had not been compulsory and we had not been forced into doing it I very much doubt many of us would have gone in them at PE time.

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Comment by: Alan on 3rd April 2024 at 03:18

Comment by: TimH on 2nd April 2024 at 18:32



..."Finally - on the TV news tonight there was a bit about:
An 80-year-old suspected paedophile ... arrested at Heathrow after nearly 30 years on the run over allegations of historical sexual abuse against young boys.
Despicable actions ... but I saw a shambling, partially deaf, frightened old man, walking with a stick - not many years older than me - 'every person should be presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty'."

If only I had played the violin instead of the trumpet I would have given a rendition of Hearts & Flowers, Tim.

This now old man was arrested and charged when he was 53. he ran away to escape his trial 27 years ago. That in itself speaks volumes, in my opinion. Hardly the actions of an innocent man (a bit like the two teachers of similar ages fighting extradition to Scotland from South Africa where they ran away to after being charged with historical sex crimes of a disgusting nature). He might be partially deaf and walk with a stick, but he wasn't; and didn't when he committed the offences for which he is charged. His victims have got older too, and they probably remember every day what was done to them.

Don't waste your sympathy on him, Tim - no doubt when he shambles into court he will have been instructed by his defence barrister to appear as gaga as possible. Even IF he gets a custodial sentence, you can be sure he will spend it in the hospital prison, and get early release. In my view, men like this, who commit appalling crimes, ought to feel the full vigour of the law, whether they committed the offence last year or sometime in the 1970s.

Where do you draw the line?. When does somebody become too old to face justice, a sort of perk of old age? - and when does a victim become too old to expect justice for something done to them in childhood or young adulthood? What age should we wipe the slate clean?

If he had faced the music in 1997 he would be a free man now having paid his debt to decent society

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Comment by: Rupert on 3rd April 2024 at 02:18

I started at grammar school in 1967 after passing my 11+.

We had very exacting and high dress codes at school even for PE. The gym was supposed to be white plimsolls at the time, no socks on that I remember, white shorts that were very short and a thin white vest. All whites in other words. We would be checked over to make sure we were up to scratch for PE. Everything had to be clean and well pressed without creases. If our plimsolls were considered too dirty or had not been cleaned properly, or smelled, then you would be made to take them off and do the gym without anything on your feet at all. This happened quite a lot actually. If your gym vest looked anything other than spotless and fresh for that day's lesson, or creased, it had to come off there and then and you were not allowed to have anything on above your waist, it was the bare chest instead. This was also quite frequent. Most gym had at least a couple of boys like that. Some PE masters were stricter than others. Any nonsense in the school gym or need for a telling off meant you got the cold shower treatment at the end and had to wait for the other boys to have their warm shower before being sent in cold instead. This also happened rather a lot too. Nobody was allowed to refuse a shower after PE. The masters could deal you with the slipper or plimsoll on the spot in the gym if they so wished for more serious troublemakers or continued unauthorised absences, truanting in other words, or even continued lateness. The gym was a very draughty and echoey place with a dusty floor with a certain gym like atmosphere and smell about it.

Coming outside for team games we did this in all weathers. Take rugby for example, there was no real separating of the abilities, all of us were meant to be dragged up to reach the highest standard of play. Cuts and bruises were expected and throwing ourselves about was demanded. Nobody was allowed to leave the rugby pitch looking anything other than completely wrecked as if they'd been dragged through a hedge backwards, it was about dirt, sweat and a bit of blood sometimes, not trying to avoid it. Minor fractures in PE were shockingly commonplace after team sports on the school fields, and even the occasional broken arm or leg, every year seemed to be someone with this.

We wore our house colours outside for PE and things were not quite as strict on the state of that kit as it was for the gym whites. The head of PE often took us on the school cross country through the nearby lanes surrounding school. Other masters also took us for cross country in our house colours but the head guy always took us out stripped down without the house shirt on, and we ran in a state of shirtlessness with a large collection of very white and very trim looking young bare chested youths, again in all weathers come rain or shine. Too slow and you got made to run with your hands on your head until told otherwise quite often with one master. I always remember some of the more nerdy boys in national health spectacles running these lessons looking like fish out of water with their pasty thin white bodies and flushed red faces out of breath, but we were all in it together and never heard a complaint about it. It was tough but undoubtedly kept all of us fit for some kind of purpose.

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Comment by: Stephen on 2nd April 2024 at 22:49

Comment by: James Finch on 2nd April 2024 at 19:25
“Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired.”



This quote is surely directed at Alan isn't it?

Alan, you have expressed a liking for classical music I have read. Do you know of this quote by Aristotle;

'Our youth should also be educated with music and physical education'

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Comment by: Richard on 2nd April 2024 at 22:28

Comment by: Greg2 on 2nd April 2024 at 16:57
Comment by: Amanda on 1st April 2024 at 15:46
As much as anything else I think this is an example of the usual double standards coming into play here, Amanda. No one ever really gave a damn about boys privacy, which is something boys had to learn fast in the past. Hasn't your son's generation had to learn this? I was beginning to think that things had improved, but maybe not. It seems that this is a version of the old double standards, but with a modern up to date twist. I don’t think she/he will mind.
I doubt you need worry about it ever becoming acceptable the other way around, where girls’ privacy was being encroached. This would be a huge, national news scandal, wouldn’t it.




Isn't it interesting Greg that when the woman is in with the boys, as a man, there is little or no obvious newsworthyness in it, yet as you say, if a man was in with the girls it would likely be scandalising the nation and in the tabloids and on GB News and Talk TV all day long.

Where Janet is concerned I think she just about gets away with it as a primary teacher. I had women in my middle school changing room for PE back in the early 70s, although no showers were involved there but she saw us down to our pants only and paid close attention to what we did before leading us out to PE. The girls were left alone, they were presumed to behave while boys had to be watched because we couldn't be trusted as much. It would have been very different if Janet had mentioned doing what she did at primary in the 70s at secondary level and looking at a bunch of post puberty young chaps with developed hairy willies. Boys modesty may not be much of a thing but even so, no teacher such as Janet would ever be allowed that kind of access after age eleven, well I should certainly hope not anyway.

For myself I found being made to shower, be naked among others or take the frequent shirtless lessons in the gym ultimately gave me a better body image about myself and others and also not to be too judgemental either I suppose. We had to learn fast to accept such things whether we liked it or not.

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Comment by: James Finch on 2nd April 2024 at 19:25

“Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired.”

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Comment by: TimH on 2nd April 2024 at 18:32

I wasn't going to post this but:

On the question of ISPs, as Chris G says, ISPs are, I understand, allocated to your router, not your PC, tablet, etc., so if you are at different location to your 'home' one you get a different ISP (although when I re-boot my router I retain the original ISP). So - I could be going from place to place, logging in and making posts under another name - but don't worry - I'm not.

What intrigues me is that one user seems to change his/her ISP on a very frequent basis - three on this page alone. Most intriguing.

Janet was a 'person in authority' and as a teacher '... expects their wishes to be carried out, otherwise they would have no authority'. In my life I have to use use phrases like 'Could I ask you to stay on that side of the rope, please?' or 'Could I see your tickets, please?' - in both cases - I am telling them what I want.

And Janet 'left' teaching in 1995 - mid 90s by my estimation, not the 'late 90s' as someone suggested.

Finally - on the TV news tonight there was a bit about:
An 80-year-old suspected paedophile ... arrested at Heathrow after nearly 30 years on the run over allegations of historical sexual abuse against young boys.
Despicable actions ... but I saw a shambling, partially deaf, frightened old man, walking with a stick - not many years older than me - 'every person should be presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty'.

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Comment by: Greg2 on 2nd April 2024 at 18:01

Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11 and 1st April 2024 at 23:31
'Between 1976-79 I worked at a primary school and took boys PE, girls PE and mixed PE, once again boys (8-11) took much of the gym PE with a bare chest. In this school I also had access all areas when required. Both schools required showering after PE for everyone. Male teachers supervised boys at secondary, I was able to do so at primary. There were no complaints.'

'You are quite right Greg, this was a woman's prerogative and a man could not do so with young girls at school.'

This just got me thinking. What is it in our culture that makes us believe that a girl’s privacy must be strictly protected at all costs, and kept away from any male eyes, but with boys, it doesn’t really matter who sees them. Even with small children? I’ve nothing against nudity at all, but I’d much rather we had a culture that dealt with it equally. They don’t worry about this in any way in Scandinavian countries, where I’ve worked many times. In fact both girls and boys of junior school age sometimes shower together, and can be supervised by either men or women. It’s not a big deal for anyone and a far more healthy attitude.

I spent some time in Germany growing up. They weren’t that bothered by nudity there either, but it didn't seem fair to me, which I noticed even at the age of 7. I remember playing on a park while meine Mama und Oma sat on a bench waiting after we’d been shopping. I played on a climbing frame in a sandy area where you had to have bare feet. There were other apparatus to play on nearby. There was a shallow, paddling pool not far away, which I didn’t bother with. A few other kids were about. I started to notice that some of the boys had nothing on, but most girls wore swimming costumes. Soon a mother arrived with three children and sat on a bench near my mum and gran. A boy who looked a bit older than me; a girl perhaps my age or younger, and a little brother about 3. The mother helped the girl into a costume while the older boy was getting ready. When the girl was done she ran off to the water, and then the mother then helped the boy, but didn’t put any swimming trunks on him! He then ran over to climb on the frame near me. A few girls eventually turned up to climb on the frame, and they were certainly sniggering together because of the boy. I don’t know whether he was bothered or not, but I remember feeling more embarrassed than he seemed to be. I soon got fed up with it and went to my mum and said I was ready to go home now. I’ve ofter wondered why mothers mostly completely undressed their sons but not their daughters?

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Comment by: Greg2 on 2nd April 2024 at 16:57

Comment by: Amanda on 1st April 2024 at 15:46
As much as anything else I think this is an example of the usual double standards coming into play here, Amanda. No one ever really gave a damn about boys privacy, which is something boys had to learn fast in the past. Hasn't your son's generation had to learn this? I was beginning to think that things had improved, but maybe not. It seems that this is a version of the old double standards, but with a modern up to date twist. I don’t think she/he will mind.

I doubt you need worry about it ever becoming acceptable the other way around, where girls’ privacy was being encroached. This would be a huge, national news scandal, wouldn’t it.

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Comment by: Mick on 2nd April 2024 at 15:28

You are always willing and able to counter quite normal people with such extreme arguments and pedantry aren't you Alan. Now you are tearing an admittedly ageing former schoolteacher apart over the fact she dared to take some lessons with boys without shirts 45 plus years back in the past and stood near a shower area, and you yourself tell us you went to an all boys school so none of this will have ever affected you personally anyway.

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Comment by: Alan on 2nd April 2024 at 11:34

Comment by: Janet on 1st April 2024 at 23:31

".....I've been picked up on my use of words like "told to" and "asked to" which in teaching terms mean largely the same thing to all intents and purposes. A teacher is an authority figure of course and expects their wishes to be carried out, otherwise they would have no authority. As a teacher you do not expect to be answered back to......"


"....How could anyone think of teachers as nothing more than petty officials mad on power. That's so unfair and unkind and simply untrue in almost all cases......"


Firstly the definition of authority (courtesy Encyclopaedia Britannica):

Britannica Dictionary definition of AUTHORITY. 1. [noncount] : the power to give orders or make decisions : the power or right to direct or control someone or something.


With all due respect, Janet, I think your first paragraph there, answers the second.

Children and young adults are not dogs, being trained for Crufts. They have feelings and should have a right to question anything they are "told/asked" to do, if they don't feel comfortable doing it. Also, you never met some of the teachers it was my misfortune to encounter. Asking a question should never be considered "answering back" - that way lies North Korea, China and Russia.

Authority IS power - just another word for it.

Just to end on a note of agreement, I totally concur that this idea of men dressing up as women (and looking much like drag from the Carry-Ons or Monty Python) or women as men should be totally banned in schools, no if's, no but's. It is unnatural and disconcerting for children and could warp them for life. IF - (a big if) - there is a place for such dubious behaviour then that place is playing Widow Twankey in the theatre pantomimes of December., where one expects to be confronted by the grotesque. This country seems to becoming more and more sick and unhinged by the week.

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Comment by: Alan on 2nd April 2024 at 04:02

Comment by: Robbie on 1st April 2024 at 22:29

"What I've noticed is that when a female comes along and states her position on what she considers an acceptable form of PE dress for boys, and mentions the dreaded bare chest herself like Janet did, then it seems to be even worse to some than when the men say it for some reason......."

I don't think it is that, Robbie, for me exactly, but Janet mentioned that she worked from the seventies till quite late in the nineties, and she didn't specify which age groups she was teaching at what time in that span. If we have to accept that people can now change their gender, we should also accept that some boys would feel uncomfortable, especially older ones, being thus (un)attired with a woman teacher.

By the late 90s my schooldays were long in the past, and in my case, I perhaps always thought (hoped?) that the practices of the old days had been jettisoned - they did not include women gym mistresses anyway for boys in our school - perhaps I was naive in that respect?. I think that is why the revelations of the Royal Liberty saga, for example, genuinely shocked me even more, to think that such situations were going on long after I felt safe and secure away from school. I do consider the feelings of other people, not just myself.

Now, as Amanda told us last night, we have transvestite teachers in P.E. departments, it seems the world is even more crazy and mixed up - perhaps "back then" WAS a bit better, at least there were only two sexes at that time.

To reassure Chris, I am writing this on my sofa, as both the Post Office in WH Smith and Costa Coffee are both, I imagine, closed, and our first bus, which I would need to get there, doesn't depart till 5.25 - and I am not walking in this weather - it's pouring with rain. Anyway, I never drink coffee!

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Comment by: Janet on 1st April 2024 at 23:31

Well I've been taken a bit by surprise at the reaction my little comment has stirred here.

I'm not quite sure what the comment by Chris mixing me with two others is supposed to mean but I shall leave that aside as unimportant.

I've been picked up on my use of words like "told to" and "asked to" which in teaching terms mean largely the same thing to all intents and purposes. A teacher is an authority figure of course and expects their wishes to be carried out, otherwise they would have no authority. As a teacher you do not expect to be answered back to.

When I worked in primary education I followed the standards set by the school, its head teacher and governors at the time. Boys at the primary school and the parents all knew they would turn out for PE in most cases indoors in PE not requiring tops of any type. This was seen as a completely normal standard of PE dress for boys at the time. It was also my job to make sure that all children doing PE had a quick shower afterwards, including girls at secondary school. Where the boys were concerned at the primary school I can reassure that sensible discretion was applied and there was no standing directly in line watching, just standing aside but being aware of proceedings.

How could anyone think of teachers as nothing more than petty officials mad on power. That's so unfair and unkind and simply untrue in almost all cases.

I actually taught in St Albans, Hertfordshire Matthew and there were differences between many local authorities you are correct there.

To Greg, teachers may not like to admit so much but they do have their favourite pupils and I have a number who I recall with a deep sense of fondness to this day. I cannot comment on your over familiar comment without knowing the details of the meaning behind it but I could imagine sometimes young people may misinterpret something along the way. Boys at primary school in the late 1970s did not really take a shower in front of me but more in the vicinity of. Perhaps it's best described as keeping a lookout out the corner of one eye. You are quite right Greg, this was a woman's prerogative and a man could not do so with young girls at school. It wasn't so much that I felt comfortable saying it, or necessary, rather just laying down the basic facts as they happened a very long time ago now, although very fresh still in my own ageing mind.

I saw the comment about the trans teacher earlier and do find that uncomfortable and rules need to be tightened up on that issue I feel where there is a chance of a man saying he is now a woman and being allowed into girls and womens areas, especially where school is concerned.

I don't think that is contradictory concerning my own past however. Many female teachers in the era of the 1970s freely entered boys changing rooms at school for PE and swimming lessons.

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Comment by: Robbie on 1st April 2024 at 22:29

What I've noticed is that when a female comes along and states her position on what she considers an acceptable form of PE dress for boys, and mentions the dreaded bare chest herself like Janet did, then it seems to be even worse to some than when the men say it for some reason. I don't know if I've imagined that. Some of what Janet said rings right to me, we always had female teachers lingering around the boys changing for PE lessons in our middle school because there was no alternative really.

It's getting ever harder it seems for people to clearly separate the present from the past and judge each accordingly. Thus we get bad reactions to the likes of people such as Janet for instance who says she was looking in on her primary class boys changing and even showering in the 70s without realising, even if we were there ourselves at the time, that it was just rather normal behaviour back then to do so and there was unlikely to be anymore to it than that.

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Comment by: Tony on 1st April 2024 at 21:33

Well I've never had Greg2 down as a shill of Alan's so that was amusing to read here tonight.

Look, I've been quite sympathetic to some of what Alan says in the past but that doesn't mean I am not prepared to be critical when I think needs must.

I'm looking forward to hearing from Craig about the Easter Monday barechest run from his whatsapp group he was mentioning here a few days ago, so if you are reading this Craig let us know how it went and if you got those numbers you spoke of.

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Comment by: Neil on 1st April 2024 at 21:03

To Chris G.

Don't start all that nonsense again please, and I'm no 'sock puppet' as you put it either and have big disagreements with Alan on a lot of issues. I'm not sure too many people are posting from coffee shops or public libraries at the times shown in those posts either and certainly not on Easter Sundays like the Janet one. From what I can see my IP address has remained the same with each post so far. The IP address tagging seems to have been working well to weed out the worst excesses here.

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Comment by: Alan on 1st April 2024 at 19:55

Comment by: Chris G on 1st April 2024 at 15:46


"Spring has sprung, and the SockPuppets seem to be emerging from Hibernation, not that they ever really went away, despite the introduction of IP address monitoring. I can get a new IP address just by visiting my local public library, sipping a coffee in Starbucks or Costa, spending time in a Hospital Waiting Room or re-booting my Router if I can't be bothered to go out."

Just to put this boring old cannard to rest, once and for all. I do not go to the public library at 4.00 in the morning (or nearly 9.00 p.m. on Easter Monday), to "change my IP number".

My messages always have my email address on them, and I don't write for anybody else.

I hope that now is perfectly clear?

Hard perhaps to believe, that not everyone agrees with us on things we say, but sometimes, some people do, and it is therefore not surprising that you get messages that are in broad agreement. I doubt anyone believes that you write all the replies that are in broad agreement with your. point of view, and nobody to my knowledge, has ever accused you, of so doing, in the same way you appear to be accusing me. I don't expect an apology, but I would hope that you understand the point I have made in this message.

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Comment by: Greg2 on 1st April 2024 at 17:48

I thought I might open a can of worms with my comment. So, rather a long reply. Sorry.
Comment by: Stephen on 31st March 2024 at 23:20
We also went swimming once a week during the last two years at junior school, and of course it’s true that children of that age do need supervision and it is usually females who do that at those ages. We went with our class teacher too, and our swimming coach was a woman who worked with schools visiting that pool. It’s crazy thinking back how shy I was about appearing in those skimpy swimming trunks boys wore at that time in front of our teacher and the girls in my class when I was only 10 to 11. We changed in cubicles with two of us in each one. As ridiculous as it might sound, I can actually remember trying to rearrange myself ‘down there’ so that nothing looked too obvious, as other boys, quite rightly, didn’t seem to care. I can’t really get back inside my head at that age as to why I was like that other than I didn’t like being stared at by the giggly girls. By the way, I was very average for my age down there so I really can’t think what i was trying to achieve really. Perhaps just circumstances.

Neil on 1st April 2024 at 00:00
Neil, no I’m not being like Alan, or anyone else in particular for that matter. We’re all who we are and all have our own experiences growing up that might affect us slightly or profoundly depending on many factors. I just remembered certain things that stayed with me and so I had certain awarenesses, certainly by that age. Yes, I’d done all those things like changing together in classrooms at junior school ages, and you are correct, it really doesn’t matter too much when so young. In fact at the time I remember thinking that it was worse for the girls as they had to do PT, as we called it then, in their underwear, whereas boys would just wear our shorts. Yes, Junior schools were always very feminine environments, though we did have two male teachers in my school, one of which was my teacher when I was 10. By that age PT had turned into Country or Scottish dancing anyway, and we kept our clothes on for that. Thankfully, I didn’t experience school showers until Secondary school.

So, here's a general account of my early experiences at that age, and what lead to my comment.

My final year junior school teacher was a great character and teacher who seemed to prefer boys, and she certainly took a liking to me, which I didn’t really mind most of the time. On our first morning in her class, we all filed in and sat where we chose. I sat with friend, near the back as usual. We were soon told to leave these places and to all line up along the back wall. She then pointed to each child telling them where to sit, and each time placing a boy next to a girl. There were always more girls than boys and all this seemed to take some time, until I was the last boy, together with about 10 girls. I slowly began my dreaded feeling, that surely she can’t think I’m a girl, as I’d had that awkward mistake made occasionally throughout my childhood, possibly due to my hair usually being slightly longer than most boys at that time. Finally there was just myself and one, very pretty, girl left. We were placed at the one remaining desk, which had the back of it placed right up against the teacher’s desk, so right at the front of the class. Consequently, I was often asked to the front whenever she wanted someone to help with things; something I would normally have never volunteered to do. On one such occasion I was asked to the front and told to remove my top clothing so she could point at my ribs etc during a biology lesson. That was the last straw and I just refused. She tried pulling on my arm to encourage me to comply but I pulled back, saying I don’t want to do that. I was quite pleased I had the confidence to stand my ground at that young age, to the extent that she eventually gave up and ordered another boy to the front to do it.

On another occasion I somehow ended up lying across her knees at her desk as she playfully slapped my backside, to the hilarity of the whole class. I remember a feeling of slight amusement as part of class clown fun, but also mixed with embarrassment during all the class laughter. She certainly wouldn’t get away with that behaviour today. She also ran the boys’ school football team, choosing me as captain. That was fair enough as I was good at football and did become top goalscorer. But I do remember missing a shot once, with her shouting out very loudly, ‘For goodness sake Greg, you’re not just a pretty face’ which again everyone within ear shot watching nearby seemed to think hilarious, and then as it became half-time, carried on with further teasing during the break. I think I remember walking away from it all and standing on my own for a bit.

I could mention other moments throughout that last year but I’ll leave it there. I suppose I did feel sort of ‘special’ in a childish way, and knew that she seemed to like me. But, imagine if I’d also had to shower in front of her after all this attention, I certainly would have found that very uncomfortable just at that age when you’re not sure about anything. She was actually a very good teacher, and I did do very well in her class. It was her last year as a junior school teacher, and for the next school year she was to join a secondary school as art and music teacher there. As this coincided with my last year at junior school, she’d arranged for me to go to her new school as well, even organising that I’d be in her form. I did attend this school for a short time, but not appearing until late into the second term. But I was to leave after a short time as it eventually proved too far to travel each morning while still recovering from a bad leg fracture that happened during that summer between the two schools…and the pretty girl I was sat next to for that whole school year? We both decided that we liked one another, probably due to seeing one another so much, and she became an early ‘girlfriend’.

Comment by: Alan on 1st April 2024 at 04:12
Alan what always irritates me slightly is that people who’ve found themselves doing certain work, always seem to take the opportunity to announce to everyone what they’ve done so. If you can understand my meaning. Both males and females always seem to do this.

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Comment by: Alan on 1st April 2024 at 17:40

Comment by: Amanda on 1st April 2024 at 15:46


"A high school academy that my sixteen year old son goes to currently has a trans man (a woman who is now identifying as a man) teaching boys PE on the staff and having complete access to the boys changing room to do so."


This is the sort of ludicrous situation we have now employers are going woke with a vengeance. Things get worse in Scotland from today (and no doubt later this year when we have a change of government) because they are painfully PC, and it might be deemed illegal to say that you find the situation distasteful.. If it were me, if your son is uncomfortable with the situation I would find him a better school to finish off his education. It doesn't say much for the headmaster and his board of govenors that they are prepared to connive with this tomfoolery..

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Comment by: Chris G on 1st April 2024 at 15:46

Spring has sprung, and the SockPuppets seem to be emerging from Hibernation, not that they ever really went away, despite the introduction of IP address monitoring. I can get a new IP address just by visiting my local public library, sipping a coffee in Starbucks or Costa, spending time in a Hospital Waiting Room or re-booting my Router if I can't be bothered to go out.

Are we really expected to give much credence to multiple nested Comments on Comments?

Comment by: Alan on 1st April 2024 at 04:12
Comment by: Greg2 on 31st March 2024 at 21:46
"Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11

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Comment by: Amanda on 1st April 2024 at 15:46

A high school academy that my sixteen year old son goes to currently has a trans man (a woman who is now identifying as a man) teaching boys PE on the staff and having complete access to the boys changing room to do so. I am not going to mention the school because it might cause problems if I'm identified and nobody is supposed to be making a thing about it, but this person is still biologically female and sporting clear female characteristics such as breasts. This teacher commonly takes certain gym classes with shirtless boys apparently, my own son included. All I will say is this is in eastern Scotland in a high population area and a large school. What do you think of that then?

How long until trans women, men who identify as women, are allowed to teach girls and get access to their changing areas in school?

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Comment by: Alan on 1st April 2024 at 04:12

Comment by: Greg2 on 31st March 2024 at 21:46


"Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11
Janet why have you felt it necessary and comfortable to make the announcement that you took boys of various ages for shirtless PE over all those years, in both mixed and single gendered classes, and that you had access to the boys showering at primary school ages. I would have really hated to have had to shower in front of my female primary school teacher when I was 11. Thinking back, she was far too familiar with me anyway when I was at that young age. It’s just typical that there’s total disregard for how boys might feel about this at that age, so the boys will quietly just put up with it, even though they don’t like it. But obviously there would be not a chance in hell that girls would have to put up with that had the genders been reversed".



It's all down to power again, Greg. Janet boasts she could do it because she had the power to inflict it. It clearly doesn't bother her now., nor at the time she held that power.

We had no women teachers but if I had of done, I would have played truant more often, if they were prowling round the locker and shower rooms.


Teachers really annoy me - when they are not boasting about their powers in loco parentis, they are forever whining about how hard done by they are. Their Dr. Roach, a leader of one of the teaching unions was on Radio 4 on Saturday, ahead of a conference speech, giving us all the old hard luck stories about how hard teachers find it to cope:

https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/article-listing/the-teaching-profession-is-in-crisis.html

As far as I am aware the profession has been "in crisis" for the past 40/50 years. I would suggest a crisis of their own making, due to many of their attitude problems. The poor things find it so hard to cope with only 10 weeks holiday a year, a generous salary and pension scheme. Some are even turning to the bottle (some of ours were doing that back in the 1980s - in that one respect they must have been ahead of their times!).

It begs the question how would the delicate flowers cope if they worked six days a week in a supermarket on minimum wage, or in a job that required a degree of physical strength. It also begs another question - if the job is so terrible, why do they stay in it?. If they don't like the job - there's the door.

Money and power are strong incentives.

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Comment by: Neil on 1st April 2024 at 00:00

You sound just like Alan there Greg, actually I had to do a double take at the name just incase! The thing with being at primary school is they were and still are overwhelmingly female by ratio to men are they not.

If you go right back to infants school we changed at our tables in the classroom together in front of the woman teacher, boys and girls beside each other down to our pants and knickers with each other. I don't think anyone cared much at that. There was no changing room other than the class room we were in or we could have gone to a room that divided up a pair of classes with a partition but that was never done. All in it together at that tender age. A proper changing room seemed quite posh to get to ourselves once up to primary school.

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Comment by: Stephen on 31st March 2024 at 23:20

Greg2.

What Janet says about primary school is likely not as bad as it seems when written down. When I was at primary school we went swimming very rarely actually but when we did we went along to a nearby leisure centre and two ladies would take us there from school, one would be in charge of girls and the other the boys and keep eye on us in the changing area as we changed in and out of swim stuff and dried off afterwards. Well someone has to watch a group of ten year olds don't they. I remember we often faced the wall as we changed. I think this most happened at ages of 9 and 10, that's 1969-70 in my case. You are right though, it would not have happened in reverse would it, but saying that, I was not unduly bothered. Our teacher was discreet and in Janet's case I very much doubt she was staring into the boys shower like the men might have done but that's only an educated guess on my part. This also comes right back to that mindset that says boys don't do modesty I suppose, although we all know that's completely false in reality. I actually had a lot of private swimming tuition away from school with a close friend of the family and a small friendly learning group.

At secondary school I remember the men that took me constantly watching us closely as we showered and timing us with the stopwatch to make sure we had our two and a half minutes under the water and it quite often going rather cold on us. I would have been very unwilling to stand there showering if one of the ladies had been watching if I'd had to do that at primary school, but primary age is a very different dynamic to secondary in terms of personal development.

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Comment by: Greg2 on 31st March 2024 at 21:46

Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11
Janet why have you felt it necessary and comfortable to make the announcement that you took boys of various ages for shirtless PE over all those years, in both mixed and single gendered classes, and that you had access to the boys showering at primary school ages. I would have really hated to have had to shower in front of my female primary school teacher when I was 11. Thinking back, she was far too familiar with me anyway when I was at that young age. It’s just typical that there’s total disregard for how boys might feel about this at that age, so the boys will quietly just put up with it, even though they don’t like it. But obviously there would be not a chance in hell that girls would have to put up with that had the genders been reversed.

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Comment by: Matthew S on 31st March 2024 at 16:40

Janet, don't mind my asking (I know this is an incidental question) in what part of the United Kingdom did you teach? I went to school in Essex and thought that perhaps rules vary between local authorities.

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Comment by: Alan on 31st March 2024 at 16:34

Nicholas J.

Just reread the 2nd point Janet made (I have reprinted it here as line 1) and the penultimate line, which I have repeated as well for you:

"2. PE teachers are well within their rights to tell a class they want it done in bare chests...."



"....I was a physical education teacher for 19 years in the 70s, 80s and 90s, covering 1976-95. In that time I took boys and girls primary and secondary classes each week in the school sports hall with boys only, as well as girls only, at secondary level and boys (11-15) were always asked under any teacher, either male or female like me to do so without a shirt inside the school sports hall in the secondary school I worked at from 1979 to 1987...."


You will note she said "told" in the first instance and "asked" in the latter. A typical piece of pusillanimous word juggling much loved by petty officialdom.

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Comment by: Nicholas J on 31st March 2024 at 15:12

Comment by: Alan on 31st March 2024 at 10:59
Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11
Don't try to sugar the pill, Janet. They were TOLD, by your own admission, not "asked".





You seem to be arguing with yourself here. Janet clearly used the word 'told' and not 'asked' so what are you picking her up about?

I'm sensing an enormous amount if anger within your comments and I don't understand it. I remember having quite big anxieties surrounding PE related issues at school, at first I was afraid, I was petrified, especially showers and being made to get naked, but worked my way through them quite effectively and quickly enough in the end. I was there 1978 to 1984 so covering Janet's own time. I'm at a loss to understand why someone many years later continues to hold this deep seated bitterness on something as simple as a teacher asking a class not to wear a top in a PE lesson though. I certainly didn't care much for doing so myself at school if I'm honest about it but I certainly don't hold any resentment towards anyone for telling me to do such things. See my earlier comment from 29th February about it. Obviously everyone is different and some deal with things a lot worse than others who have the had the same. Happy Easter.

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