Burnley Grammar School

Craig I would like to ask if you have attracted any black or ethnic minority men among the thirty eight men currently part of your whatsapp barechest running group?

(Ex-grammar 1968-73 and very anxious about school PE baring my body)

But.....

I agree with you Charles on forcing them out of their comfort zones at school. Look, we've had a current teacher of physical education on here recently who has appeared to say that he makes his class of boys to take occasional PE bare chested, some people call that forcing them to do it, but when he finds out if they're alright or not with it they turn out to say by a mighty margin that they are not bothered by their treatment at school by the teacher, thus proving that even in this day and age, never mind in the sixties or whenever, boys are generally accepting and see no issue with the teacher telling them what to do, even making them remove their shirts for PE so they are in bare chests. I believe this teacher also applies showers at school also, which isn't cruelty, even if mandatory, it's common sense.

Like you Charles, when I started school aged eleven in 1968 (grammar in Somerset) I was incredibly nervous about taking my top off for the gym classes and our school was blanket bare chests always in gym classes for the whole lot of us and I knew it before I started but I knuckled down and developed a preference for it quite quickly which surprised me and gave me a boost and much the same attitude I had to removing my shirt I had to the prospect of showers at school and I didn't think I could possibly cope with such things very easily with all that involved but I did, even some of the colder ones we got given from time to time. I have a hazy recollection of one of my PE teachers talking to the lads in class about acceptance one day and I'm sure this was something to do with how we looked. My PE teachers were exceptionally strict, they used corporal punishment with the use of a slipper/plimsoll, both on the hands and behinds. But they were also remarkably fair and responsible and seemed to want the best for us.

While I understand some old timers might have disliked their time at school I've no real idea why decades later it would matter so much to them still. This chap with the bareskin runners, what a revelation he is. Some of these nervy adults should take the plunge with something like that and discover a bit more about themselves. In my considered opinion many people get stuck in a negative thinking loop and think they hate something just because they once did but when they try it they find they don't as much as they think.

I was doing bareskin running in the early 70's at school Craig. The grammar boys in my PE set would run the school perimeter in our bare chests at any time of year going, only in navy shorts and black plimsolls without socks, but not when it was too cold. Sometimes we even, horror of horrors, went outside the school and off down a track alongside the playing fields and we'd often be doing this on filthy wet days in May just like today and come back wet through, hair dripping and speckled in brown dirt on our legs and sometimes even on our chests. I grew to like doing it, after disliking it at first when I did it aged twelve. I'd still give it a go at my age now, I'm in fine nick I think.

Claire - I think the IP identifier underneath each post has successfully curtailed the significant abuse and trolling comments from a few months ago. Since they began appearing there is no doubt to me that the discourse has improved greatly and if you look back through the pages there are a lot more contributors generally, even if some of them are just one time comments, as well as those who like to engage more often.

It sounds to me like you are more generally unhappy with the entire content and subject matter being discussed and style of postings rather than specifics, is this the case and can you elaborate further.

If someone can explain the difference between a message board and a forum I'd like to know.

I believe the IP identifiers were placed after a contributor here suggested this privately to the site proprietor and the suggestion was taken up, according to a comment earlier in the year. I think those kind of technical points are best done that way.

Mel on 20th May – thanks for an intelligent post full of common sense. You are quite right, in my humble opinion, not to question why your son does PE with no shirt on. Why on earth would anyone, I would say? Your son is doing fine and gets good reports and appears to not be bothered by it, from what you say, and as you also mention, thirty years ago it was totally accepted, perfectly normal, and no-one batted an eyelid.

The big question which I have yet to find a satisfactory answer to, is why have things changed so drastically during the interim? I believe the reason why boys did not wear tops for PE in the fifties was as a result of clothes rationing, due to the war, from 1941 to 1949, although shortages continued until the mid-1950’s at least. Why on earth should struggling families have been forced to buy extra, totally unnecessary, items for boys to wear for a couple of hours a week in PE? That situation then persisted into the 60’s and 70’s – why have schools subsequently transitioned to the opposite position of requiring boys to wear shirts in PE?

Yes, many things have changed in the last half century or so, but many of those changes are not for the better! I still believe it is right for boys to do PE bare-chested for the following reasons: 1. Tops are totally pointless! Just another thing for parents to have to buy and then wash and iron at least once a week, and another thing for boys to have to carry to & from school, and sometimes have to carry around all day in school. 2. Not wearing a top gives more freedom of movement and is healthier – the body sweats during strenuous exercise – it is a sign that it is overheating. Sweat evaporates from the skin causing cooling – but it can’t if it’s being absorbed by a shirt! 3. PE teachers are in a unique safeguarding position – being able to see boys’ upper bodies every week means they would be able to spot any repeated bruising on individuals and flag potential abuse issues. Not only that, but any comments overheard between boys provide the perfect catalyst to providing reassurance by talking to them about body issues – both the stages of puberty and the “everybody’s different – everybody’s normal” philosophy, which rightly pervades today.

I fully understand some boys’ concerns about being seen shirtless – because I was one! I hated it until I was forced to be so for PE on starting secondary school, but after a few weeks of running around with all my classmates like that, I loved it! When it was cold in the gym, it only encouraged us to be as active as possible to warm up, and I'm sure it helped us bond as a group.

In fact, I wonder if my life would be different had I not been forced to get over my irrational fear – would I never have had kids because I didn’t have the courage to strip in front of my girlfriends/wife? Would I never have been able to teach my kids to swim? Would I never have spent time on the beach with my family?

Furthermore, I strongly believe it is the job of a good school to FORCE pupils out of their comfort zones and encourage them to get used to dealing with uncomfortable situations. The absence of doing so is what has lead to a massive lack of resilience in today’s teenagers, where it seems every little setback, criticism or example of life’s everyday problems leads to them having their “mental health affected”.

Comment by Micky - 20th May:

" . . .anyone you engage with on an Internet message board . . ."

Surely, the issue is that this NOT a "Message Board" in the accepted sense of the term. If it were, it would have threaded messaging capability, enabling discussions to be followed without endless repostings of the tedious discourses that currently infest it. And it would be effectively monitored for content and abuse.

This is an excellent site, addressing interesting historical aspects of 20th century British life, let down by poor management, and suffering particularly by the inability to effectively control proliferation of what are essentially multiple off-topic repostings.
Brian - please get a grip on the situation, even if that implies drastic measures such as curtailing, or even suspending, comments.

Craig

I'm out of the habit of being generally shirtless. I think having some (though possibly not all) of those features might also make me uncomfortable, yes. I know logically most people aren't looking but this is about how you feel. I will look out Toby's post. I don't have tattoos - the permanence never appealed.

Comment by: Mickey on 20th May 2024 at 19:55
Craig - some interesting points you make about your runners not all having been the type to go shirtless in school or elsewhere. I don't think I could join! I wonder - and don't answer if this is intrusive - do you have many chubby guys, or hairy shoulders/backs, or even outie belly buttons?




Hi Mickey.

To answer those questions, the chubby one, well nobody is what you'd define as fat, but there are a few guys with what you'd call a couple of extra pounds on the waist. Regular shaped men in other words. Obviously the kinds of people who like to go running or keep fit in general are unlikely to have ended up too overweight. But that doesn't preclude anyone who is from joining our group and maybe doing smaller group or shorter distances. Nobody is judgemental and some guys have made comments in the past about how we look, often to say how good one or two look for their age, never anything negative.

On the body hair question, I've not noticed anything dramatic, just normal looking guys for the most part. I think there is a lot more body shaving nowadays so even really hairy chests are not exactly common. It's possible that men who are really hairy just don't like showing it off much, and I mean very thick dark hair, not normal everyday slightly hairy chests, we've enough of those among our group. Until you get up close to me my body seems hairless but it's there on close inspection a little bit, nothing much though. I must admit I would hate to be excessively hairy and if I was I would probably take it off.

Your final question on navels, now there's a question I cannot answer because I haven't actually noticed or thought about it. Nothing has caught my eye let's just say that. There must be some. I'll let you know sometime! Now you've said this I know it's going to make me look now. I've just got what looks the commonest. I know someone wrote about this on here before, his name was Toby I think. Would this small thing really put you off removing your shirt then?

As I've said before, we are all just regular normal looking guys, perhaps with the exception of the six and a half footer I mentioned last time who is on the tall and long limbed side. There are no overdone six packs on 28 inch waists with fake tans and biceps that look like they were made on steroids. None of that. One or two of the younger guys have a couple of tattoo's but the majority of us have none at all. You just try getting nearly 40 men aged 20 to 60 with their shirts off in one place nowadays without seeing a tattoo on any patch of visible skin above the waistline, an almost impossible task it seems.

You say you don't think you could join. I've heard that comment 3 times so far from men who did join and not only joined, took part once and then came back again on some of our larger runs. It's kind of nice for people to find some confidence they untap. Just because you might have been an awkward kid at school who had a dislike for PE or for taking your shirt off in company doesn't mean you have to continue being that child and you can become that adult that throws those awkward PE child shackles off.

While most of us, me included, like to run best with others, even just in a pair sometimes, this adds confidence, but we did have someone at Easter who didn't come with us on the Monday run we did because he thought the group was far too big and he would feel less comfortable making such a large show of things and likes the more modest groups of 4 to 6 we go out on. So although many of us like running bareskins in company, one of our number felt there was a critical mass, it was more than 20 of us, that made him feel self conscious, not by being among the group but about how we might be perceived in such a large group running along bareskins by others looking on.

If anyone thinks we are nothing more than a lot of super confident show offs then think again. It's just not like that at all.

Does it secretly appeal to you then Mickey, even though you don't think you could do it?

Sorry! It was Mickey's first paragraph.

Comment by: Alan on 21st May 2024 at 04:44
'Finally the confirmation of the degree of voyeurism that went on in schools, confirmed in the past few weeks, from the women who admit that they enjoyed looking at half naked boys in school, and got gratification from it, to the men who admitted that they enjoyed looking at other lads showering at school for "comparison" purposes (it is very obvious, btw, they did not go to tough inner city schools. If they had been doing their "comparing" in the school I went to, they would have got beaten up).'



Voyeurism?

This is all thoroughly normal human behaviour, especially among the young, and not akin to voyeurism/perving/potential criminality of any kind for 99.999% of us. Unless blind, teenage girls noticing boys with their shirts off near them is hardly surprising is it, and if you're stood stark naked in a shower room with your fellow class at school it would be impossible not to see (check out) what's around you wouldn't it. All completely normal in my book, everyone has done it whatever their inclination.

Mickey's second paragraph below hits the nail on the head. The solution is to ignore the obsessive and insulting comments and not to reply to the individual who makes them.
Recently someone remarked that interesting contributors had left the discussion. Can anyone blame them? Just ignore him!

Comment by: Tony on 20th May 2024 at 22:36


Hello Tony. On the subject of names, I do not like the way teachers had the habit of saying "Smith" when they could have said "David", for example. I wonder if they still do so? - it wouldn't surprise me. It takes the scholastic world about thirty years to catch up with everybody else. As the world gets more informal, so do schools get ever more pompous and self-important with their interminable rules. On the subject of shortening names, a band I was in already had an Alan, so I was always referred to as Al, which didn't bother me in the slightest - it sounds friendly - far better than calling somebody by their surname only. If Charles was offended, then I apologise. Believe it or not, I like to be friendly!.

Yes - you are right. I am angry. So many people on this site seem to just accept what had happened at R.L (you see I am considerate, I don't want to make poor, overwrought Sue "SCREAM") and shrugged it off. It is noticeable not one of the people on this site who are either in the profession now, or in the ;past, condemned what the criminal had done - instead they seemed angry and put out that I had dared to mention it. Why?.

There was a smattering of support for the shocking abuse both Nick Campbell and Earl Spencer had to put up with (he is the late Lady Diana's brother), but again - not one condemnation from present or former teachers. I would just remind everybody that many ordinary lads suffered similar abuse, but because they are not TV stars or nobility, it seems to be forgotten that their wellbeing was just as important, and the consequences of the abuse, that affected Mr. Campbell and the Earl are just as vivid and corrosive, even if they are not "important". They both remember it vividly after 40'/50 years - so do less prominent men.

Certainly if I were in a profession that seemed to attract more than it's fair share of dubious characters, I would have something to say about it. As I have said before, the fault might lie with local authorities who fail to perform proper background checks on the characters they employ. Just yesterday a "nursery assistant" was found guilty of the manslaughter of a BABY who she tied to a beanbag, for an hour and a half, because - in this 37 year old woman's opinion, - the poor little kid had not "slept long enough".

How can such disgusting behaviour be excused. Anyone who knows anything about humans knows we are all different. I sleep about 4 hours a night. I wouldn't sleep any longer if I were tied up. Did the employer not realise that this woman had anger management issues, and how was she allowed, by fellow employees, to get away with such extreme behaviour?. Just imagine the lengths that dreadful woman might have gone to had she taught in a proper school. Would any of her colleagues report her?. I very much doubt it, in the same way "decent" teachers acted like the three wise monkeys when they had suspicions of some of their colleagues. If there was a prosecution, they might then admit they had suspicions, but put their heads above the parapet? - no chance.

Finally the confirmation of the degree of voyeurism that went on in schools, confirmed in the past few weeks, from the women who admit that they enjoyed looking at half naked boys in school, and got gratification from it, to the men who admitted that they enjoyed looking at other lads showering at school for "comparison" purposes (it is very obvious, btw, they did not go to tough inner city schools. If they had been doing their "comparing" in the school I went to, they would have got beaten up).

School was a squalid, miserable experience for many people in the past - you hope it isn't now, but I suspect, for many, it still is, and this is down to teachers, just as much as the pupils, because they enable it..

I have answered you at length, because your response seemed genuine, not band-wagon jumping.

Alan.

I remember you having a conversation on here some time ago about how you wished to be referred to correctly when meeting people. I think it was when the discussion had turned to those of us who were being referred to by our surnames only at school. You had a strong view on the correct way you wished to be addressed. There was little to disagree with you on that I think.

So it's really very disappointing to see you respond to Charles by calling him Charlie instead as some people would see that as a sign of disrespect I'm sure you of all people would agree.

I also noticed you namechecked someone called Carl when I think you meant Craig, but that was obviously just an oversight.

I think the comment from Sue was broadly along the right track there. I think you have reduced the power of your argument and diluted it through sheer volume of making it, similar to crying wolf too many times and having nobody listen in the end.

Just think of this as considered well meaning respectful friendly advice. You sound very depressed and angry Alan and that saddens me. I'm not trying to sound patronising.

Alan earlier today;
'Well done, Shirley. I am sure this ever-so-amusing family anecdote is just what the men on this site suffering from Stockholm Syndrome want to read.'


Oh Alan I think we can allow Shirley a laugh with her own brother can't we? It's what siblings do with each other all the time at these ages. Infact in my own case at school I tried my best to ignore my own older sister.

I agree Sue, but you have to bear in mind the possibility that anyone you engage with on an Internet message board who has extremely limited self awareness, perspective, and can't recognise their repeated points (whether sensible or not) have so exceeded reasonable behaviour is probably in some way dealing with their own issues or demons. If there is someone here who I know writes prejudiced rubbish, I just don't read their post. If others don't reply then that works very well and the individual can carry on as they please.

Craig - some interesting points you make about your runners not all having been the type to go shirtless in school or elsewhere. I don't think I could join! I wonder - and don't answer if this is intrusive - do you have many chubby guys, or hairy shoulders/backs, or even outie belly buttons?

We had two PE teachers who couldn't have been more different. The younger of the two was an excellent inspiring teacher, who also taught maths. The older guy was incompetent and had serious anger management issues. We never knew in advance who would be taking the class. The wait to find out is a powerful memory.

Comment by: Charles on 20th May 2024 at 11:13


....." I am sure I am not alone in thinking we do not want you here!"

There is a lot of things I don't want Charlie, for example women gushing that they liked looking at half naked lads, - when they were at school to learn, not to gawp, - but there you are - that is democracy for you.


Comment by: Mel on 20th May 2024 at 15:02


"A few points from me.

Mike, yes this website has suddenly become riddled with intrusive ads my end too. One of the worst is the pop up at the bottom of the screen that I have had to click away a lot........"

Why not use an Ad Blocker?. You can get them for Windows machines, Chromebooks and Macs. They are free and easy to install. I use them all the time - they are very effective on national newspapers, and on You Tube. It might tell you on some YT videos that you are not "allowed" to use Adblockers, but just refresh the page and you will get to see the video. The screen might go blank for 15-30 seconds, that is just the amount of time the ad runs for, it is just blanking them out - that is better than some of the garbage that is being advertised, and the "music" that accompanies them.

A few points from me.

Mike, yes this website has suddenly become riddled with intrusive ads my end too. One of the worst is the pop up at the bottom of the screen that I have had to click away a lot.

Sue, another agreement from me too.

As I previously said when on here a number of weeks ago, my own 14 year old is in school right now in a Daventry secondary and has taken frequent lessons in a bare chest, it happens with his fortnightly Thursday gym PE lesson and appears to be how these teachers there choose to do this at his school, although nowhere does anything mention this, either the school website or the prospectus I have when he started. When I left school 30 years ago this kind of thing for the boys was par for the course without a second thought given to it and I won't deny when I got to know my own son now did this a couple of times a month in PE, since 2021, I was surprised because it appeared they all had to do so, according to him, and I know he's not a natural when it comes to removing and going about in a bare chest apart from on a few foreign holidays we've had when he was a lot younger.

I am not questioning the motives of those that teach him these lessons because he has had multiple teachers and they all do the same thing with them. I do not think I should view these teachers as potential perverts just because they are doing this with the boys. That way lies madness. It seems they insist on bare chests and it is compulsory, but at least it's the same for all of them. Yes you can question why, but why anything in this life. It's not something worth getting wound up about to the point of stupidity over and my son is doing just fine anyway and gets positive reports back to me from these teachers, a couple who I have met and I made a good judgement of them. But I keep aware of things all the same.

A few people have left clips of here and spoken of gym displays and sports days with the boys in bare chests long ago. Next month he's got his sports day we can go to if we want. Now this is the point where I would ask for answers, if the boys at that were all in bare chests at that and being told to do so. I would say something if I saw that. Not if there were a few in bare chests because they wanted to, only if it was clear they were being told to be bare chests. But that has not happened in the last two summers in 2022 and 2023 and I am quite certain it won't happen this year either.


Robbie, I have noticed that the former teachers now retired have been absent recently too. Another who was quite interesting has also absented and I think there was a rather interesting ongoing story there over his own dilemma as he saw it for his class and their summer PE kit the school said should be bare chests just like in my son's school gym. That was the Yorkshire Dad, so if you are about I'd like to hear how things have turned out so far.

Sue on the 19th May: Well said. Agree with you 100%. Why on earth does the so-called moderator continually allow such defamatory, insulting, and repetitious nonsense? What used to be, and no doubt was intended to be, an interesting, nostalgic forum has been allowed to turn into “the Alan show” with barely anyone allowed to say anything without his biased, distorted and twisted view of the matter being posted in response. You have been urged countless times to get help, Alan, but it seems all you want to do is force your vitriol on the rest of us. How many more interesting contributors are going to give up visiting this site because of your rants? I am sure I am not alone in thinking we do not want you here!

Comment by: Shirley on 19th May 2024 at 22:55


"The boys at my secondary school had compulsory no tops on for PE. Girls joined them sometimes and never made any comments but the first time I did this with them and first saw so many boys in the same room without shirts on in all their bare chests I did feel a little flutter of something just seeing them all. My brother used to slam the door in my face if I caught him in his bedroom getting changed or with his top off. I walked past the school gym window one day when he was in there doing PE with his shirt off and laughed at him. It was the only time I caught him at school like that with his shirt off although I saw lots of other boys in my classes up close and very personal. All looked good shape and I don't remember seeing any boys even close to being obese, so wonder why all these old 70's schoolboys worry so much."

Well done, Shirley. I am sure this ever-so-amusing family anecdote is just what the men on this site suffering from Stockholm Syndrome want to read. Well done -0 and keep it up - and we musn't forget retired teacher Sue, must we?. who - just like MPs during the expenses scandal got so sick and tired (and doubtless wanted to "SCREAM") when anyone dare mention the fact that there were rotten apples in their barrel. Just like M.P's, teachers are egotists and cannot bear being reminded that they, too have feet of clay, are not omniscient, even though they like to pretend they are. They are often two-faced and devious. But for God's sake stop pretending they are benign little gifts from heaven, and beyond critisism.

Sue - like your goodself, turn up out of the blue, then disappear into cyberspace. Like the woman last week you seem to have regarded school as a peep show. If the boot had been on the other foot, and we had men coming on here, making jocular references to gawping at girls in a state of undress, would make you (and dear old Sue) think it just as harmless?. Yet another example of double standards..

As for Sue's many backers, may I just remind you that, a rounded picture of history, includes the bad as well as the good - and the rotten. That the rotten exist is not my fault.

Comment by: Robbie on 19th May 2024 at 15:24
Comment by: Sue on 19th May 2024 at 12:57
This would be a much more enjoyable thread without it Sue, so I can agree with you, yes. I've noticed that the amount of open PE teacher involvement has almost dried up, excluding the current one. There used to be a few retired PE teachers on the forum worth a read.





Robbie I have noticed this also. I have been considering whether further input is either wise or productive myself because it's actually quite demoralising to read such inaccurate comments about the vast majority of people who teach my subject who are nothing like they are portrayed here by Alan and not even close to it. It's such grotesque misrepresentation, and the assertion that people such as myself do the job on account of our poor academic ability is nonsense too.

I've given a good account of myself and even given a good account of my pupils own opinions.

Comment by: Chris G on 19th May 2024 at 22:34
Sue
I'l join you in the SCREAMING!!




My feelings - https://youtu.be/HXiZHXkG-ac?si=tC4A_P_YlAEuw1PX

The boys at my secondary school had compulsory no tops on for PE. Girls joined them sometimes and never made any comments but the first time I did this with them and first saw so many boys in the same room without shirts on in all their bare chests I did feel a little flutter of something just seeing them all. My brother used to slam the door in my face if I caught him in his bedroom getting changed or with his top off. I walked past the school gym window one day when he was in there doing PE with his shirt off and laughed at him. It was the only time I caught him at school like that with his shirt off although I saw lots of other boys in my classes up close and very personal. All looked good shape and I don't remember seeing any boys even close to being obese, so wonder why all these old 70's schoolboys worry so much.

I think everyone is getting pretty fed up with Alans input on this forum. I hope he can find a better place to express his feelings on sites that are more relevant to his cause!

Sue
I'l join you in the SCREAMING!!,

Sue - you are absolutely right but the offender still refuses to see it.

I think all my p.e. teachers also taught an academic subject as well - they were not stupid nor were they bullies or paedophiles.

I tend to agree with you Sue. I need say no more. I knew I shouldn't have placed that BBC article on here on Friday, I think a misjudgement on my part. I've no desire to encourage the discussion into that direction too much.

I also agree with you Mike on the sudden influx of excessive advertising going on here. Is this anyone else's experience too?

Comment by: Alan on 19th May 2024

I think this is as much about the constant repeating of the same train of thought as much as the content, so on that basis I have to agree with Sue I'm afraid.

Do you remember when everyone decided to start showing a lot more respect to each other and refrain from direct insults (to you mostly) after a bit of a ding dong at the end of last year? I think that has largely held out since then but it's now you who is lacking respectful discourse with others you disgaree with, have you not noticed that. Irony eh.

We all want to scream I think.

Just put a bloody sock in it once and for all.

Comment by: Sue on 19th May 2024 at 12:57
<If I see the words "Royal Liberty" or associated issues written down once more on this forum I think I am going to SCREAM.
You are an over obsessive zealot treating this website and those who wish to engage with it for its actual intended purposes with disrespect now and we are stuck in a perpetual groundhog day without prospect of release.
If you agree with me please say, so this man finally understands.>




This would be a much more enjoyable thread without it Sue, so I can agree with you, yes. I've noticed that the amount of open PE teacher involvement has almost dried up, excluding the current one. There used to be a few retired PE teachers on the forum worth a read.

Comment by: Sue on 19th May 2024 at 12:57

"If I see the words "Royal Liberty" or associated issues written down once more on this forum I think I am going to SCREAM."

A pedant with anger management issues. Well, well - there's a surprise?.

What do you expect to see on a history website?. If it were about the war, would you just expect to read about the sing-songs in the tube stations ("I'm Going To Get Lit Up When The Lights Go On In London") and how you gave away the garden railings for scrap, and saving up your ration cupons for warm bloomers for Xmas, ?. Nothing about Nazi's or the misery they caused in the world for six years?

History includes bad as well as good, Sue dear.