Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Ellis on 6th April 2024 at 01:29

I was admittedly something of an overly confident show off at school sometimes and worried about very little, certainly didn't care about who might see me in what state of undress or whatever like that associated with PE, whether a girl might see me with no shirt on for example, and I know I'd have treated the ladies PE teacher coming in on the boys as a good laugh actually and probably tried to deliberately embarrass her! I would not have been at all bothered by such a thing at all, I know some people might find that hard to believe. I remember chatting to someone once and saying how great it would be if we could share with the girls, and I meant it! Far from it being an unhealthy thing to say I actually think it's quite a healthy way of thinking to be largely unconcerned about such things and be completely accepting about who you are and the skin you are in. I wish others were.

On the twin brother thing, I seem to remember that twins were always kept separate at my schools, I knew a couple of sets of twins myself over the years at school. One pair of identical twin brothers used to always be joined at the hip staying close by each other every break time before having to go their to their separate classes. They were often given a hard time for simply being so close with one another and freezing others out.

The question I want to know Stuart is what were your differences then as identical twins, and were you identical in all respects, you know, down there, was that the cause of the changing room issue. Even identical twins can't be that identical can they when seen in the raw. When I was at middle school the two pairs I knew were always sent in with the same clothes on each even though we had no school uniform to speak of at that school age. I'm sure that was more of a thing in the past rather than nowadays. A teachers nightmare, I often couldn't tell one from the other myself.

Comment by: Ellis on 6th April 2024 at 01:29, and also Neil and Richard below.
What, are you saying Ellis, that Mrs Harrison didn’t just keep a lookout out the corner of one eye, like Janet said she did? Who’d have thought. You can be sure Mrs Harrison would have told the story that she had to check on the boys during showering at every opportunity as well. It’s strange they always seem do that. An opposite gender empowerment thing I suppose. The girls would certainly have known, and I expect probably teased you a little about it at times. I didn’t really understand why you had to avoid showing any embarrassment, or resentment about it though. That must have made things worse.

I never had to put up with a woman watching us showering, thankfully. Nor did I even have to do gym without a shirt. In that regard perhaps I was lucky. But, I certainly experienced double standards fully head on during late childhood, and I’ll give a routine example of that during 3 months on a children's ward when nearly 12. My memories take me right back to my discomfort of that time. It was a completely female environment on a children's ward back then, rather like a junior or middle school always is. I never saw a male nurse, only doctors. I was dealt with at the whim of the female nurses on duty; some of whom were lovely, others awful. I soon leant to dread the weekly bed sheet changing on the mixed gender ward, as it was always a performance with my bed, and taking much longer due to having my leg in traction with my fractured femur, and also because I was a boy.

There was always a turnaround of children, and at this particular time the end bit of the ward where my bed was had several girls around it. Due to being in traction with a Thomas splint on one leg, it meant I was attached to the bed and therefore couldn’t wear pyjama bottoms over it, just a jacket. A young girl had recently arrived, and was placed just opposite my bed. She would come across to my bed most afternoons to chat, and I can still see her light blue dressing gown with round collar with lacy trim. She asked my age, saying she was 11 too. I started dreading the sheet changing coming up as I really didn’t want this girl to see me; she was always staring across at me anyway. When the day came I asked nurses if I could have a screen, which was just smirked at, as these were always in use around girls beds, giving the impression it didn’t matter for me. In comparison, it was like a secret society meeting around any girls' beds when this happened with the female nurses in charge, but for boys, nobody cared. They only protected their own it seems, and to be truthful it was almost as though they deliberately put boys in their charge on display. So, there I was, while this took place, and that girl stared across at me all the way through it as I watched her, and did she stare. I hated it and felt humiliated. Later that afternoon, the girl came across to talk to me again. All I remember thinking is, ‘You’ve seen me with nothing on,’ and I’m sure she could see I wasn’t interested and she walked away.

That’s just how it was. I was always a bit bodily shy anyway, it was just my nature. It’s no use saying it’s stupid and boys shouldn’t care about such things. We're all who we are and I wasn't raise in any sort of institution. I think, especially at that late childhood age, just when you like to pretend you’re starting to grow up, even though you’re wondering when this might start to happen, you prefer this to be respected. It was bad enough with those young nurses all over me, I certainly didn’t want same age girls having a ring side seat. Yes, I know it was a hundred years ago, and yes of course I’m not totally embittered and compulsive and obsessive about it. I just still have empathy for that kid I used to be back then, and remembered how he felt.

I don’t think they’d treat kids in this way today, at least I hope not…but there again, hasn’t a young she/he person just been invited to become a boys’ gym teacher somewhere?

We did bare chested PE at my own comprehensive school all the while in my time, '76 to '81. I think it must have definitely been compulsory. We never got any other options other than that. I simply don't even remember any kind of official school gym top of any kind, whether a tee-shirt or a vest for that matter or even bringing such to school with me on gym days, besides a towel and shorts. I just remember popping off to gym never wearing anything on top being the thing everyone did. I tended to find I slipped easily into this way of doing things after the initial self conscious awkwardness lessened within a few weeks but it definitely took getting used to. No idea why they effectively banned all shirts in the school gym at ours.

What I do remember is the barking at us to get into the showers! No choice in that for sure and it's a big memory for me because quite often my twin brother who was in another class shared PE with our class and we were identical twins hard to tell apart at that age but it got really tedious, we found ourselves sharing the PE showers with each other and that wasn't great with your brother when clowns were trying to work out how to tell us apart while we had nothing on. Neither of us liked doing PE together and really disliked changing and showering together and the crap we had to put up with from others in our respective classes about it.

When we first started PE at school our first PE teacher assembled us in the gym and told us he wanted to give everyone a kiss. That was weird until he went on to say it was an acronym that stood for Keep In Shape System.

Stephen, I had no idea that was a thing! I doubt it was when I was at school. I can't see my mam and dad spending on that though, especially as I have brothers.

Tbh it just a sticky out belly button. I didn't mean to make it sound horrific or particularly bad. It just made me different. Turns out there aren't many about! Especially "spiral" ones.

Amazed to find someone else with one who isn't family lol.

Comment by: Toby on 7th April 2024 at 00:32


Reading about what you said Toby made me wonder if you could change that, I've never thought about it before, as I'm similar although not given it much thought ever. I found this and apparently what you are born with can be changed there. Who knew? Did you? Is it still something that makes you self conscious as an adult or was this just a school thing?

https://www.puritybridge.co.uk/procedure/clinic-based-aesthetic-surgery/belly-button-reshaping/#:~:text=After%20numbing%20the%20area%20with,belly%20button%20can%20be%20deepened.

Comment by: Toby on 7th April 2024 at 00:32

Toby, it is strange, reading some of the recent posts, all of which have been very reasonable, it is clear some of the writers have forgotten that they are now seeing things from the adult angle ("we are all the same" etc), but they forget just how judgmental boys are, and how, in later years, if they see somebody from their time at school they revert to boyhood. I have no doubt, were I unlucky enough to run into some of my old school "mates", I would still get the "do you have to put a clothes-hanger in your teeth to save going down the plughole?" 'joke' - even though I now bear no resemblance to the 11/13 year old me.

I guess the same is true for you.

Happiest days of your life,. eh?. I am glad that is not true.

Some time ago on the board I mentioned my embarrassment at school, not so much for shirtless PE in itself (shirts and skins, late 80s, occasional) but because it meant I had to reveal my sticky out belly button. Well this week I bumped into a couple of lads from school, and they both mentioned remembering my "outie ". I was flabbergasted. Clearly it was a defining feature more than I even feared after being pointed out in PE. I wish we'd been able to wear vests/t-shirts.

Comment by: Ellis on 6th April 2024 at 01:29
"I'm in the States, Janet with her UK boys class sounds about right for the time. When I was in grade school in the 80's, up to 12 years old or so, the female PE teacher (Mrs Harrison who must have been around 30-35) would walk quite shamelessly and brazenly into the boys locker room to hurry us along in the shower and would cop a direct eyeful of the lot of us with not a stitch on between any of us and just stand there looking on. The worst bit was you couldn't act up about it and openly show you were embarrassed about it, either in front of the teacher or your mates. Mrs Harrison obviously held to the view that modesty and bashful wasn't part of a normal boy's vocabulary and it's an obvious double standard applied to our gender only."





Yes I agree with you it's a bit of a liberty and smacks of a complete lack of empathy to a certain degree and pushing the boundaries a bit too far in your case, and yes such a clear double standard involved where you know full it couldn't work in reverse, male teacher to girls. Knowing what Americans are like for the compensation culture you could claim for lifelong trauma it caused and gain a multi million dollar payout down the line! Actually don't do that, it's not worth it.

I'm in the States, Janet with her UK boys class sounds about right for the time. When I was in grade school in the 80's, up to 12 years old or so, the female PE teacher (Mrs Harrison who must have been around 30-35) would walk quite shamelessly and brazenly into the boys locker room to hurry us along in the shower and would cop a direct eyeful of the lot of us with not a stitch on between any of us and just stand there looking on. The worst bit was you couldn't act up about it and openly show you were embarrassed about it, either in front of the teacher or your mates. Mrs Harrison obviously held to the view that modesty and bashful wasn't part of a normal boy's vocabulary and it's an obvious double standard applied to our gender only.

Another old grammar schoolboy here from the mid seventies and it was a school with a high status physical education ethos. Now that's all well and good when you are gifted or naturally great at physical sports and have aptitude, you can sail through but those who struggle end up finding their lives are nothing but a kick to the self esteem on the receiving end of never ending destructive remarks from PE teachers. I saw this with my own eyes happening to boys who did their best but it was never good enough.

One or two PE teachers where I went seemed a bit too handy with the pushing about and the overly physical part of the education if you know what I mean by that. I was in the gym once and laughed at something another kid had done and got a judo move from my PE teacher that took me off my feet and landed me flat on the floor without warning. We were not doing judo at the time. The same teacher once jumped in the showers and pulled me out for talking too much and told me to sit with my legs crossed against the wall and my hands on my head along with the other boy I was talking with. I was being too loud apparently. We sat naked on our bare backsides on the floor, legs crossed, hands on heads and in silence while the rest of class carried on around us and got dressed. I definitely went to a grammar where a couple of PE teachers liked to openly humiliate and everyone probably had their tale of a time when something happened to them as well. We all did.

If I'd been bad at physical education or been one of the terribly sensitive types it would have been far worse, luckily I could brush it off but others can't do that with some of these characters of the past and some of the worst ones taught in some of the best schools, not the state school dumps.

Boys at school either respond well to the kind of PE we did in the past or they don't and that divide seems to have been shown up on this forum very clearly doesn't it.

Greg2

"What is it about gym teachers, that they were usually such disciplinarians, and so traditionally sergeant major strict?"

In my case we actually had, in succession, two ex-army PE Sergeant instructors. On the whole, they were good guys. They didn't stand any messing around, but they always treated us with respect. The gym was isolated from the main school buildings, where the showers etc. were, so the PE instructor never bothered us while changing, showering etc.

Comment by: Mark R on 4th April 2024 at 19:24


I know everyone has heard more than enough about my views on school, but I will just say that the best thing that happened to my school was the day the men from Costain Ltd came to raise it to the ground. They achieved what the Luftwaffe didnr!

Comment by: Rupert on 3rd April 2024 at 02:18
Your post was interesting to read Rupert, and an accurate account of those times. Your years in school corresponded with mine and I could relate to much of what you said, even down to the pristine all white gym kit requirements. It really was as though we were all sent through a preliminary or preparatory version of national service once we stepped over that threshold into the gym changing room. Even the atmosphere in there was entirely different to any other school room. Certainly, none of it was what we expected when it was all new to us.

I wonder what this was and why? What is it about gym teachers, that they were usually such disciplinarians, and so traditionally sergeant major strict? Perhaps it’s something to do with their interests being focused on exercising our growing bodies, and what we could all attain and look like; rather than educating our expanding minds, and what we could all learn and fill them with? Perhaps there’s something deeply instinctive within human psyche that gym teachers tap into when in charge of demanding physical activity, which even permitted ordering us all to strip off and shower, compared to someone just teaching an academic subject, where everyone just sat in a classroom?

It’s true that certain types enjoyed and benefitted from being ordered about and directed into what to do. Some even needed it, others didn’t. Just reading the conflicting comments on here confirms this.

Who agrees with this video about their education at school?

We all know the song of course, but I saw the video for the first time just recently. Made me think it might resonate with the likes of people such as Alan and others that think in that way about school.

Another Brick In The Wall - Pink Floyd.

https://youtu.be/YR5ApYxkU-U?feature=shared

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:15
@Sean - I'm not Chris G but the ISPs I got from the start until, say five weeks ago were:
3.254
3.221
3.235 4
3.248 2
3.230
3.226 4
3.244 11
3.225 2
3.212 12
3.129 22
3.160 2
3.237 2
3.132 4
3.144

The second number was the number of times used, although not sequentially








What is the point of this comment above?

Orson yesterday on 3rd April.

I wouldn't pay taxes if they didn't make me either. Such is life and we all get told we have to do things we don't wish to do.

You are most welcome Matthew S.

I think there's a real problem in the country when those of us who did a decent and professional hard days work very many years ago in school are now looked back on as borderline criminal or placed under suspicion for doing some perfectly normal and innocent activities in how we ran our classes.

At primary school from 1976-79 I never had to write a letter home, make a phone call or ask someone else to on my behalf because of any unhappy problems regards any PE class or general teaching I did and there is not one parent evening I can ever remember where anybody elected to bring up unhappiness about the conduct of myself or general teaching, or anyone who mentioned the PE kit, the taking of showering or my involvement despite everything being perfectly open and transparent. I have no memory of any parent or guardian making any written approaches either suggesting any problems.

Stephen - look at:
Hesketh Fletcher Gym Tean
Dec 4th 2923
Comment by Ryan
Line 7 or thereabouts

Comment by: Newton on 3rd April 2024 at 03:20
Almost everyone showed reluctance about heading into the showers at school when I first faced them in 1980 and if they had not been compulsory and we had not been forced into doing it I very much doubt many of us would have gone in them at PE time.




I agree with this comment. I think this was probably the feeling in schools across the country for almost everyone wasn't it?

Pat, female or male Pat by the way?

Could you identify where you read that so that I can look and put it in context.

I think it depends how the bare nipple was touched doesn't it. Touching a boy's bare nipple is probably not on the same scale as touching a girl, whose would be covered anyway. If the girl was simply doing PE properly and holding the boy in some way and touched his nipple in that manner then there is nothing to answer about or wrong with that, although it's a bit distasteful to make a thing of it in the playground I agree but that's just the nature of some immature children really isn't it. However if the girl was deliberately setting out to humiliate while in the lesson by way of actually making a point of touching the nipple or tweaking it then that's quite different altogether.

That's how I see it anyway, I'm not a teacher though.

This is directed at Janet and the other teachers who had boys go shirtless in mixed lessons. I present quotes from a comment posted under another photo on this site:

"I was forced into those kind of situations at school a lot at that age in the early 90s where girls shared the school gym alongside boys such as myself who had to present ourselves for our teacher in gym shorts and shirtless. There was a girl who had to hold onto me in PE and touched my bare nipple and made a bit of a thing about that in the playground after PE, so embarrassing"

There was more in this comment, but these were the most relevant quotes that describe an incident I'd like the teachers' thoughts on.

Specifically, I'd like to ask the teachers who posted on this site:

1. If one of your male students told you this happened to him, would you believe him? What would be your response?
2. If you witnessed this occurring yourself, what would you do?
3. Would this have convinced you to let boys wear tops if they wanted to?
4. Assuming this actually happened, how serious would you/your school consider this incident? On a scale of insignificant to expulsion worthy and beyond.

Comment by: Tony on 3rd April 2024 at 12:56


I.."I suspect that in cases such as this there are far more quiet victims who never come forward and say anything at all. I'm reminded of a friend I had who had a term getting secretly bullied by two boys at school and was so ashamed he would not tell anyone because he thought it reflected badly on him and made him look weak and pathetic."


I really agree with this. I myself was bullied because I was about the youngest and smallest kid in my class especially in the first two years, and you feel helpless and hopeless. The kids who do it would have denied it, the teachers, not wanting trouble, would have accepted those denials (and even when they saw incidents in the playground would look the other way), and if there were problems at home, an 11/12 year old's would have looked small fry. Of course there is that element of making you feel weak and pathetic, and embarrassed.

I hasten to add that my problems were not on the scale of the children's home kids we have been talking about, or even in my own school. One of my best friends was bullied unmercifully, and had a very unhappy home life. - he died, after an illness, in December 2022. I was luckier than him in all respects.

I think the police must be very sure of their case to name the man concerned who has been on the run for 27 years, and to have spent so long hunting him down.

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:08


I was just making the point Tim that we all get older - to take the argument to it's logical conclusion, had Hitler lived another thirty/forty years he, too, would have been an old man, possibly with a walking stick - would anyone feel sorry for him?. We will never know the damage he inflicted on already damaged children 50 years ago - some sympathy for them would not come amiss.

On your unfounded and incorrect insinuations about my posts - where do you imagine I can possibly go at 4 or 5 in the mornings to send all these messages?. I can assure you I am at my home, and ALL messages I have sent since this childish argument developed last autumn have carried my email address.

Everyone has a unique writing style, and I repeat I only write for myself as myself. - as a Yorkshireman would say - I say what I mean and I mean what I bloody well say. I am a Londoner by the way.

I do not intend to answer any more of these ludicrous insinuations, I know I am telling the truth, and you should be able to tell different writing styles.., as well as punctuation etc.

As it was me who suggested the IP system in the first place to stop all the puerile nonsense about me being about six different posters, I am hardly likely to sabotage it, am I?.

I can't explain why these different numbers crop up, but I am happy for you that you have nothing better to do than count them.

I am having a quiet week myself, Tim, , but not THAT quiet!

A lot more than 21 posts actually Malcolm.

I'm more amazed that you've posted 117 posts - ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTEEN on the thread since the IP tags started only three months ago Alan and that so many of them are written in the middle of the night and are actually quite lengthy too. Yes I counted back I was so curious after seeing Tim and Malcolm's comments.

It's not really a criticism, I almost admire your persistence with it all if that's your thing. The IP's don't really have any meaning do they Tim.

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:15

I'm not sure that means a great deal.

I know this is belated and she may not see it, but just to say: thank you, Janet, for answering my question and for contributing your recollections.

Please stop talking in riddles. If you have any proof of anything not seeming quite right then provide it openly or inform the moderator. Actually it is their job to be aware of things and vet posts before they appear anyway.

To answer your question Sean, the only person who must have made at least twenty one comments in the past three months is Alan isn't it. It was only a matter of time before someone showed their hand on here and said they'd been checking through all the IP numbers, I'm surprised it took so long.

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the IP numbering along the bottom of posts here and pay them no attention, I take each actual comment as it comes along for what it's worth and leave it at that.

May I suggest that this is not something that needs to divert the conversation here and if there is anyone who wishes to make a thing of it then there are means to go direct to the moderator of this site.

@Sean - I'm not Chris G but the ISPs I got from the start until, say five weeks ago were:
3.254
3.221
3.235 4
3.248 2
3.230
3.226 4
3.244 11
3.225 2
3.212 12
3.129 22
3.160 2
3.237 2
3.132 4
3.144

The second number was the number of times used, although not sequentially. (I hope the formatting works!)

Work, work, work ...

Alan's recent comments on my post of 18.30 on the 2nd, which didn't mention him.

Alan: You say: 'If he had faced the music in 1997 he would be a free man now having paid his debt to decent society' - this assumes his guilt - remember; 'Innocent until proven guilty'. Have you ever known anyone who was innocent being found guilty? I have ...

You mentioned. I think, an old phrase - an 'Eye for an Eye, ...'. There is another old phrase: 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.

And remember - I called the guy 'despicable' ...