Hesketh Fletcher Gym Team

Hi everyone. My thoughts.

I did Music, Movement and Mime lessons around about 1980 in primary school, but I'm not sure if it had anything to do with the link that was posted on the earlier post here other than it sharing the same name. We did it exactly the same as we would for the weekly PE lesson if it was indoors, that is to say the girls would wear small navy shorts and a white vest and the boys would wear black shorts (unsure why the colour difference) and never tops for the boys who would do both the music and movement lesson and PE in the same place with a bare chest only. Shoes and socks were never allowed on either.

If there was one thing at school that made me feel self conscious it was this lesson in particular.

I really didn't like the music and movement lesson. I think we did it for two years only and then stopped. I found it embarrassing at times because of what we had to do and how we had to move and we were always encouraged to lose our inhibitions and be creative, also there was quite a lot of body touching, skin on skin contact between each other which did not happen in PE. I have quite a few excruciating memories of music and movement lessons including everyone being made to go around and tightly hug each other at the end once and another where we all formed a huge circle with our legs out in front of us flat and having to wiggle our toes endlessly, utterly excruciating stuff. We were often pairing up into boy/girl as well, alongside doing just the individual stuff mostly. I think it was at the time of the boom in aerobics as they called it at the time and a lot of music and movement was similar in method to that. We used to be more out of breath doing music and movement than in PE I feel sure about that.

I went to a primary school that conducted mandatory open group totally bare showers on kids after PE and they also made us shower for three or four minutes after music and movement lessons too. I don't remember any men taking us for music and movement so when the lesson ended what would happen would be the teacher, certainly always female, would tap the headmasters office door if he was about and he would walk along a few metres to where we were and keep an eye on us as we sorted ourselves out and dressed at our cloak/changeroom which looked like a big tiled bathroom infact. If the head wasn't available the male deputy would be the one to come and stick the shower on, and sort us out. We had a man for PE lessons so this need for the headmaster or deputy didn't arise.

I think I would much rather have had just another PE lesson instead of music and movement, even though I love music and always have.

Apparently all the different coloured vests made us look untidy so they came off. Looking back it was likely to prepare us for what lay ahead. We already knew through those who had siblings at secondary school that in addition to going bare top in the gym, all outdoor PE/Games lessons would be done with a minimum of half the class showing bare chests too.

Lived UK for forty two years. Went to school late 1960s in my home nation Norway at Larvik where I took most of my studies. Less known fact. From start date at school those days past children must shower and up to when 8 years we were not separated and shared together with mixed sexes in one room. We were not ashamed or unhappy by this. Family was much the same to older.

In reference to you Ivan;

I shared lots of PE lessons during the early to mid 70's in the school gym, all the lessons were mixed up boys and girls with each other from the same class when we went out to the gym hall for PE. Lessons always taken by a lady. Many times both girls and boys could be in their underwear but most had some shorts to wear. But so many times we all did these lessons around about the ages of six or seven where the girls did not have any top on just the same as the boys and we all looked the same irrespective of the boy/girl thing. It seemed normal and nothing much then for girls and boys to go bare topped into PE together. Obviously the young age is a factor but it would not happen now.

Lee, if you were on the swimming team that's fair enough but if you're on the gym team then if that's how you normally presented yourselves in your kits surely any depiction such as a picture should actually show some level of authenticity don't you think.

Although it was circa approx 1955 until 1958 I remember Music and Movement at my infants school. Boys and girls had the lesson together. If I remember correctly in the winter boys removed their jumpers and did it in shirts and those days we all wore grey shorts all year round not like nowadays, and the shorts were just that short! So it was shirts and shorts.
In the summer we took off our shirts and as the fashion was then we all wore the singlet style vests and we did both music and movement in vest and shorts. However, for the P E lesson which was different we did that in shorts and vest.
As it was in those days the girls for both of these lessons removed their dresses and did the lesson in vest and blue knickers. That is how it was and no one as far as I know ever questioned that the girls were in their underwear but the boys were not.

Lee - that sounds like taking the skins/shirts thing to the ultimate limit just to match up. But what's wrong with everyone looking different anyway, it's great to be individual.

Comment by: Paul on 25th March 2023 at 18:51
We had to take our vests off too. All the different colours made us look untidy.

Sounds familiar this. Was this once a bit of a PE teachers thing or something?

This happened to our class when we had a school gym class photo taken in 1984 because our PE kit was a mix of coloured tops, different socks and trainers so we were told to remove our PE shirts and also our trainers and socks to make us all match in the same skins look which left our gym photo looking like the swimming team photo instead. My parents were far from impressed when they saw the photo and I gave them the explanation for it I can tell you.

Laurence, I remember doing 'Music and Movement' (don't think Mime was included!) at primary school. I'm glad that we didn't experience the leg slapping you mentioned but it sounds as though it was the same in terms of kit requirements. Girls in T-shirt and shorts, boys in just shorts. I remember wondering at the time why we had to take our tops off just to pretend to be trees and stuff like that!

We had to take our vests off too. All the different colours made us look untidy

There was always plenty of music and movement but not so sure there was very much mime that comes to mind. An interesting find Matthew by the way.

I think you are probably spot on Kev on the teacher age thing. I recall the lady did not look like she matched up with the type of lesson she was taking, and never did much moving to the music (or miming) herself. Just standing there instructing with maybe a bit of arm waving, feet glued to the same spot from memory of it. The girls were always wonderful to her and did well, whereas the boys were treated like we had two left feet or something and always feeling her sharp tongue if we were out of rhythm or something. She made liberal use of leg slapping to chastise.

The girls did this lesson in a navy or a white T-shirt but if they did not have one they could do it in the normal school blouse, either a white or light blue one. But the boys were not allowed to wear our normal school white or light blue shirt, we had to remove it completely without the T-shirt option to put back on, thus leaving us all bare on top.

Don't mind my mentioning, Laurence, but if it would bring back recollections for others, there are a few details about the BBC radio programme "Music, Movement and Mime" here, broadcast from Sept 1962 to June 1969:

https://www.broadcastforschools.co.uk/site/Music,_Movement_and_Mime

A related book, "Music, Movement and Mime for Children" by Vera Gray and Rachel Percival (Oxford University Press 1962) is available from online retailers secondhand.

That elderly lady was probably only about 45 wasn't she. A young woman nowadays.

PE seems to have sent people into two directions. Given them confidence or taken it from them. Some lads that were made to go barechested in PE took to it even if they thought they wouldn't like it, while others just never got to grips with it at all no matter what.

The comments show it really was something of a big deal to a large section of any given class.

I don't think it is anything to feel ashamed of or have to admit to having some kind of personal failing just because you were shy, insecure or embarrassed about your body or abilities in the school gym.

To both Ben and Nathan.

I quite liked PE, except for one thing, the ever present DANGER as I saw it of our PE teachers out of the blue telling all of us, or just some of us to remove what we wore above our waists leaving us with nothing on at all and completely exposed as shirtless barechest skins. This happened all too frequently throughout both my primary and secondary education.

Especially at secondary school when confronted with a shirtless hour ahead I'd immediately become critically self conscious in an instant the moment I had to do it and could feel my confidence drain away to be replaced by self doubt, and could not stop comparing myself to others around me unfavourably, quite similar to the comment that was made here. But even if we started a PE lesson wearing our tops that was no guarantee we would end it wearing them. I never quite cracked the confidence thing about going shirtless PE and simply disliked the instruction that I had to do so.

My first experience of getting my top off in school was not even in PE at primary school but was in something they called 'Music, Movement & Mime' which we did to a tape recording with girls at the age of about nine or ten. A quite elderly lady did this with us, well she seemed elderly from a child perspective anyway but was probably just normal middle aged. She made all the boys remove their tops completely while we did it and I hated her for doing that and remember she favoured girls and always had a go at boys.

Nathan, thanks for your reply. I'd agree with your sentiment on confidence but you might be surprised to know I definitely wouldn't have considered myself confident as a young teenager! In a way one of the things that enabled me to change that was experiencing shirts vs skins in PE. At the time I wouldn't have chosen to be a skin, most likely I'd have kept my top on and felt more inferior to the boys who preferred to do PE lessons with theirs off. Obviously not everyone reacts in the same way but I'd be prepared to bet many of the boys you teach now will also ultimately gain in confidence from doing PE as skins.

Nathan, what kind of reaction did you receive from the boys. Were they mixed or positive. I know I didn't regret being picked to go skins, it was nice to get my shirt off for a while.

Neil - the answer to your question is yes school does have one communal design shower in the changing room and it is used daily in the usual way you would expect. We, the school, and I myself, expect showers to be taken. It only rarely proves an issue however.

Ben - the answer to your question is no, but it was my idea on the team selection method which stops any disputes. I agree with your broader points. It has surprised me to see so many older men who were at school before I was even born have a chip on their shoulder over this. You sound very confident yourself and confidence starts with being comfortable in your own skin doesn't it.

Some people seem to think all this kind of thing slowly phased out over the past few years but why do they, it's still common practice all over the country in PE lessons as this self identifying current PE teacher is freely admitting. The most interesting part of that statement is the honesty in saying the use of the old skins v shirts teams isn't really needed anyway and falling back on tradition to use it. No problem with it myself and at least it's refreshingly straight. If you're falling back on tradition does that mean your PE ends with showering too then Nathan?

Interesting to hear from a current PE teacher in Nathan. Are the shirts versus skins lessons something you introduced yourself, or general practice for boys at the school? That sounds like a sensible system for choosing the teams, as you say there are some boys who would prefer to be skins as well as those who want to keep their shirts on. I do think it's beneficial for everyone to experience PE as a skin at some stage though.

Some school things never die do they and transcend any era.

I currently teach PE and we continue to do a traditional shirts versus skins most weeks in relevant classes. It's not something that is necessary to tell two groups apart from each other and we could do so in other ways quite easily but it is done because it is seen as a traditional way and also some boys do actually rather like the chance to do some PE with a bare chest now and again and while many will always wish to remain in a shirt there are others who would always wish not to do so. I make sure we do it completely randomly so if someone feels they are always being a skin unfairly then it's nobody's fault and purely the luck of the draw. We have long and short sticks in a pot of sand that get picked out and decide that way. Never had any complaints about it.

Thanks for your reply Rachael! I'd have to agree team selection in PE wasn't as random as you might expect, some boys always seemed to be skins far more often than others.

Luke. I don't think there is anything wrong in principle with an adult human female, a.k.a a woman, taking on the opposing male gender in secondary PE. I can only speak as a man and former schoolboy on that who had a woman take a few at my school without her gender being an issue. If there are potential issues I think they are more likely if this was reversed where any men took on sole charge of girls PE, which I would think is quite uncommon isn't it. Obviously it creates privacy issues just before and immediately after lessons that have to be addressed sensibly. Changing rooms, not just for girls but for boys as well should remain private spaces restricted to the same gender of teacher only.

The closest I can come to anything like this is having joint taught lessons with a male & female heading it up even though the class was entirely boys only. Often for boys hockey and some running we did. The female who took charge of the hockey was gobby and used to screech and holler without pausing for breath. She was not an easier ride than the fella's we had.

Hi Luke, don't worry, I knew what you meant. You really did make me laugh though:)

Hi Will, both my brothers said they can still hear the PE teachers barking at the boys to strip off. In the summer both were encouraged to take their tops off when they could and they did - tops made great goalposts. At school they did welcome the attention too. Both said it was also very rare for them not to end up stripping off - so much for a random team selection.

Gary, there goes a simple to the point comment that could have been uttered by a lot more fellow young men in school than anyone wants to believe or give credit for.

Hi Rachael, appreciate your frankness in saying you enjoyed watching boys do PE barechested! It chimes with my own observations around the same time (88-93) when most of us boys were well aware that girls wanted to see which of us would be picked to do the lesson in skins. Don't get me wrong, of course it could feel daunting but at the same time it could also be quite a confidence boost if you realised a girl was looking on as you took your vest off.
I think the girls enjoyed athletics in the summer too, we did that in mixed groups and mine was under supervision of a female teacher. Straight away she announced 'all the boys, vests off' and after that we had to be skins for the entire term.
Did your brothers ever mention how they felt about being barechested in front of the girls?

Barechested school P.E was a very big deal to a lot of boys. It was to me. It left me feeling very unconfident and dreadfully self conscious. Nobody really knew this at the time though.

Thankyou for your comment Rachael. When my comment to you was finally published I was horrified that it actually looked like I was referring to you directly and considering you the same mild expletive as my former PE teacher, I was not and thankfully you realised.

PE lessons at my school were meant to be boys only and never shared but there were at least two or three times we did share for whatever reason that escapes me with girls up one end of our gym and boys down another. It was quite a big school gym and on a couple of those lessons some if not all of us had no shirts on and although there was nothing obvious during those lessons there were some comments afterwards about what they'd observed, so it comes as no surprise to any man on here that schoolgirls would be distracted by such things and like it.

I remember going to a teenage birthday party when I was 16 around one of these girls homes from my class and the parents clearing off for a couple of hours leaving us to it, big mistake at that age, during which time a number of the boys present, it was probably about 8 of them, ended up showing off and their tops were off deliberately to get reactions from the opposite sex and no other reason. But that was their own choice. In school under a teacher is quite different. Early 90's that was so a full 30 years aqo now.

A couple of those from those days I still know look like they've never set foot inside a gym since their schooldays or done a day's further exercise. I've never understood why some people don't want to make the best of themselves and how they look with a bit of activity they like. School PE should not just be about staying fit and active while a youngster at school but about setting you up to do so for the rest of your adulthood too until you finally drop.

Out of interest, what's the wider opinion on whether female teachers should take all male PE lessons at secondary school level like I was part of in school, or for that matter vice versa should male ones take all female classes?

Hi Luke, thanks for your comments and I can 110% assure everyone I'm most definitely female!! I'll admit I enjoyed watching boys strip off. There it's said! I have 2 younger brothers who were both at the same school from 89-94 and 91-96 and they'd both said they everyone was barechested in the gym throughout school. It was a little different outside where they had a rugby top but even being outside the teachers liked a skins team and it was a coin toss to see who'd strip off. I thought if you wanted two teams simply tell some to pop vests on under their rugby tops at least it's better than nothing on a cold day! Cross country outside school grounds was done without vests until 1991 this was quite controversial and their was a lot of complaints to start with. When they were just running around the school fields then there was a choice barechested or vest.
Athletics started as soon as the track was painted out and it was either vests or skins again.