Burnley Grammar School

Hello John.

Can I just back up what Jimbo asked you. I saw your comment on here a couple of days ago and almost raised the same question but left it but as it's now been raised I may as well ask out of pure interest. Were there any actual comments you had in mind that you'd like to point out on the subject that you specifically found ridiculous?

I knew boys in upper 'big' school who ranged from acting all bold and super confident to indifferent on the bare chested issue right through to some who were plainly unhappy and in one or two cases terrified. But each to their own. I was halfway along the spectrum I think. Typical of changing pre-teen or actual teenagers at that age.

Just to show how times have changed, I was one of those who went to a middle school with shower facilities (others mention doing showers that early I saw in earlier pages) back in the 70s, but the thing about middle schools is they were, or mine was, overwhelmingly staffed by female teachers. Mine had just one man out of about a dozen teachers I remember. Both genders shared the lessons together, had a separate room to change in, both genders had to shower after PE but we only ever had the one teacher take our lesson, most times our actual class teacher, a woman, who seemed about late 30s I guess. One teacher having to dart between changing areas and when I was 9/10 she would be popping in and out while we did so. Boys being boys at that age she did seem to spend most of her time observing us to get on with things. A lady teacher keeping an eye on boys showers in middle school seems totally outrageous now but if I'm honest it passed by as nearly normal back then even if there was some coyness and private joking about it behind her back. What one or two of my class should have realised was that if they'd actually behaved a bit more she might have left us alone and not felt the need to stand watch.

What's the score with school showers and soap exactly? Middle school only let us use the water alone to get wet for about 90 seconds and out, so not to take too long despite it being a far more relaxed environment with less time pressure than at my next school from 12 upwards where time was tighter on the timetable yet we got encouraged and often told to make use of provided soap in the showers and watched as we used it, it was often something small like a freebie hotel style bar soap thing, it was a brown coloured transparent looking thing which lathered very fast, I wish I knew the name of it. We all used the same.

If you look at old football or rugger games from the 70s you'll see how poor the pitch can be over the winter season, especially when very wet, almost a mud bog, and the same for the players collecting much of that pitch upon themselves. Same at school sometimes. How and why did it all become much cleaner in recent years? Anyway, one daft guy who took our PE had the impertinence to complain about the state we'd left the shower in after washing half the school field off ourselves one afternoon when he'd set up a diving practice session in goal which led to such mess to get rid of. We'd been set up for a muck splattering by him and then he complained when we washed it off! There really was no winning with some of these guys at times.

So soap or no soap in the school showers? Does anyone know if there was a school issue soap for us to use in the showers at school if we had a school that allowed it, a bit like that unique and dreadful shiny grey toilet roll everyone used to endure too that made anyone half sane avoid at all costs a sit down trip to the toilet in school hours. I think I went my entire school life without doing that once by the way.

Thanks.

My apologies John, Why do you think some comments about barechested PE verge on the ridiculous.
My personal experience was gym always performed barechested and we were pushed hard to to sweat as quickly as possible and most of us did. We were always reminded "if we didn't sweat up we weren't working hard enough" Outdoors it was either cross country with a coin toss determining which team would strip to the waist while the others kept their vests.
Football (we never played rugby) was played with one team wearing rugby tops while the other team were expected to run to the nearest sideline and quickly go barechested. This was the way it was from 9 through to 18.

Jimbo

What makes me say what?

John, what makes you say that?
I absolutely agree about your comments about sweating, it was something out teachers kept telling us too

Some of the comments on this site relating to doing PE barechested verge on the ridiculous. Most lads myself included quickly got used to doing gym stripped to the waist and found that it was more comfortable when being worked hard than having a hot sweaty vest or t shirt stuck to your back. Also when doing exercises like push ups it’s easier when shirtless to check your body alignment when barechested. No one seems to have mentioned that in the present day the majority of male gymnasts choose to train shirtless.

Hi Harold,
Though the school was mixed PE/Games were always done separately but as the gym had reinforced glass running nearly the full length it was easy for them to get a good look at us. They wore a yellow t-shirt with black shorts or skirt and trainers which like ours had to be white
There was an emphasis on PE and although I ended up barechested a lot more often than most, the teachers were always really good, strict yes but in a good way and encouraged everyone not just a few..

Robin, were the classes mixed or did girls do PE separately? What did they wear?

I'd been told by my sisters what to expect and though the official school kit stated vest and rugby shirt in practice we were either all stripped to the waist or half the class would be picked to strip off with the other half in vests when we were outside. Obviously being a mixed school it was normal for girls to see you regardless and it wasn't uncommon for them to see boys showing sweat in the gym. A favourite during autumn and winter was to take a class out onto the field and keep one team with their rugby shirts on while the other stripped off on the sidelines. I was "good" at sports and was one of the first picked out to strip off but it was noticeable some lads definitely stripped off more than others despite it being "random" We also did laps of the field in just shorts.

I remember those white nylon shorts which we also wore outdoors not good if it started raining whilst we were outdoors. We did wear plimsolls but no socks were worn. When having pe lessons indoors we had to use the vaulting horse (which I did not like) climb ropes (I was good at ) and various other exercises. Circa 1961 to 1966 all boys school

twenty years after this photo taken our shorts were those horrible nylon things. and footwear was banned

Simon on 4th September 2022 at 12:58

Thank you for your question.

I could do with you being a bit more specific but I think you are referring to overflow or dribbling incontinence?

This being the case there are several causes and many things that might help. You should make an appointment with your GP in the coming weeks and get them to check you out. Without you being a bit more specific, I don't want to say more but if you want to be more specific, I'm happy to try and answer your questions.

For some reason its all gone totally quiet??

Have there been any comments more recent than 6th September. If so I cannot find them

I enjoyed 90% of P.E. except for when it was Rugby. Couldn't stand the sport and people used it as an excuse to beat the **** out of one another. It was our last rugby lesson of Year 11 so all I had to do was hold out for one more hour, just avoiding being passed the ball or having to tackle anyone. With 5 minutes left of the lesson, I thought I was home and dry. Suddenly a loose ball dropped about 10 yards in front of me. I don't know what came over me, maybe it was me wanting to be the hero or perhaps I was simply drunk on the testosterone. Whatever it was, I sprinted and picked up the ball and ran like wildfire. I hadn't a clue where I was going, I just knew I had to touch it down at some point. I kept on running and miraculously I had outrun most of the opposition. Until I caught a glimpse of some fiery red hair from the corner of my eye. Now in my P.E. group at the time, there were two people who sported red hair. One was an extremely small guy who suffered terrible acne. The other, well the other is now the proud owner of numerous GBH charges. I had a dilemma. If it was the small guy, I could manage to reach the end and score. If it was the other one, then I would probably be in hospital for a few weeks. Still drunk on the adrenaline, I risked it. I kept on running until smack. I went over, well and truly, like a ragdoll. The other time I went over like a ragdoll was when GBH guy squeezed by ballsack and wouldn't let go in the showers after I annoyed him on the field but he used to literally sexually assault one guy per month like that in a way no other guy could think of getting away with or daring to attempt, but it was always done for a good laugh, so that was alright then, not.

Quite interesting Philip because I was at school with a lovely girl who also lived in a house with a back garden that bordered ours when we were both middle school kids and I so remember her as we ate at the school dinner table telling me and others that she would soon be leaving to attend Bedford Girls School, which I presume must be the one in your photographs.

I know people on here have mentioned it before but when I look at old photo's such as the boys gymnastics from 1959 they just always look as if they were the fittest generation to me, despite the fact that the majority were probably smoking as soon as they hit about 15 or 16 in those days. Perhaps it's just boys working out with bare chests that seems to make them look fitter just by being like that.

Going right back to the original pistings, I was looking for something else in the Bedfordshire archives where I used to live and found this picture taken in Luton in 1969. On the link below 3rd picture down
https://bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/BedfordshireSports/Gymnastics.aspx

Warren;
'We were not allowed to waste hot water either once we got inside and actually had two teachers who would physically push us into our school shower like sardines before the water went on. PE class sizes seemed big, at least 40 guys, three separate classes together. I think they must have been train guards on a busy rush hour route in a previous life who pushed ever more people onto a crowded train before closing the doors. None of us could leave and dry off until they turned the water off again which felt like ages but was about three or four minutes most times I suppose.'

That hot water line you wrote has got me wondering whether this autumn and winter's major energy crisis will affect those remaining schools who still do things the traditional way and the cost of hot water will become a luxury too far and kill off the school shower for good. After all they are barely going to be able to heat the classrooms and I've heard talk of shorter school days or even a three day week and that's on the up side of outcomes. We better pray we are not looking at a winter 1962/63 or 1978/79 like Garth mentioned or we really will be well and truly stuffed.

Your PE teachers seemed a bit heavy handed and over controlling but I did find your train guard analogy quite hilarious for the vision it gave me of what you described in your school. Infact it made it sound more like cattle or sheep being herded together if I'm honest. Not a great way to treat human beings is it.

Comment by: Garth Maidment on 29th August 2022 at 03:09

Comment by: Garth Maidment on 31st August 2022 at 03:09

Comment by: Garth Maidment on 2nd September 2022 at 03:09

Comment by: Garth Maidment on 4th September 2022 at 03:09

I'm working in Fredericton (where? - look it up!) where it's just after 11pm



Well, well well.

More likely this is a Russian bot than Canada. Look, it posts at exactly the same time at two day intervals. It's all been written by A.I.

One for 'Dr' Hugh. I think you'll catch my drift here without me going too much info.

A brief and even not so brief shake and away is no longer good enough. Need some tissue help. Should that concern me? Age 54 and the past five years or so.

Thanks.

William on 3rd September 2022 at 21:27

The whole issue of prostate cancer is that there is still not an absolutely reliable test for it. The PSA level can be falsely high for instance if you have ejaculated in the previous 72 hours, it will be above your normal but that is rarely said. That said, the NICE guidelines lay this down as a definitive test and if it's normal you should do no more.

I never found that appropriate or adequate so I would always suggest a rectal exam too and I can't remember once I explained why any man disagreeing. You can certainly feel a difference between a healthy even if enlarged prostate and a cancerous one. A healthy one is smooth, an unhealthy one is 'craggy' and hardening and over all the years, I found that more reliable than the PSA in terms of diagnosis regardless of what NICE think. NICE has two roles, one is to promote good practice and the other is to be as penny pinching as possible about anything they recommend.

If you are having a PSA blood test, it should be at least 72 hours after a rectal exam because that too can inflate the PSA result.

I'll answer anything else when I get back but please put my name at the top because I don't want to read much of the stuff that gets posted here.

I was interested in what Derek said about his 1967 cricketing at school in that kind of unusual weather. That would have also given me anxiety. There are clips out there online where a lightning strike hits a football pitch and can kill a handful of people all at once from one strike alone. Very foolish to stay on an open field in any storm even as it approaches and seems way off. I once read that it is possible to be struck by a bolt of lightning from the centre of a thunderstorm situated as far as 10 miles away.

In my year from hell at grammar as I described it in the 1978/79 school year, it was also blessed, if that is the right word, with I think what was described as the worst winter since that notorious early 60's one from 1962/63 that my parents often told me about. I think there was snow before Christmas in a big way and I seem to remember big drifts that stopped all outdoor PE. When we came back after Christmas in January 1979 much the same thing happened yet again but with even colder temperatures which meant no outdoors PE for a while so we ended up stuck inside in the gymnasium where you could see the drifting snow piled up outside against a window.

When the snow did let up and allow us outside again it remained very cold and we were allowed an extra layer on top I think. Our grammar changing room was fitted with two square bath areas as well as a shower block and during this period one of them was used. It could accomodate a dozen or so I think. It was first come I think. It seemed popular with some but they were very rarely used. I never did. I stuck to the shower block.

It got mentioned about playing football in fog. Well school did have a brown football for playing on a snowy pitch, and a red rugby ball for the same thing. Obviously you can't play with a foot depth of snow or even a few inches but when it thawed we went out and played with a slight white covering with our coloured ball so we could see it. I'm sure the actual football and rugby leagues at the time used to do the same, not something you see anymore.

Always one to try something to see what it was like I also remember that time for getting up one weekend morning (quite possibly 13th Jan 79 sticks in my head for some reason) and throwing myself into the snow on the back garden at home with a couple of my brothers in just our pants to see what it felt like and then our mum becoming rather cross with us.

Warren - I agree with much of your comments and you went to school in the five year period just before mine started, and agree with the relatabilty of what Matt said too in so many ways even as a grammar schoolboy compared to what I presume was a comprehensive education. School PE did make me a much fitter boy and pushed us hard to make us feel various parts of our bodies we barely knew existed and raised the cardiovascular effort needed. No doubt about it.

Alan you said - "He would often start a lesson (TD was always the first subject on a Friday morning) by saying that he was in a bad mood that day and "woe-betide" (yes that word dredged out as late as the 1980s) anyone who annoyed him. It was possible to get the slipper for what he called dirty work, and sometimes the cane if he had only just given a warning about making marks or letting him see our mistakes. Usually only one or two strokes, but that was one or two too many. We had a couple of women teachers and there were times when they would threaten any lad who upset them with "sending them to Mr. B-----", so his reputation preceded him."


I gather you were at senior school in the 1980's, yes? I probably haven't seen everything you have written but did you yourself receive the cane in school as recently as the 1980's in England just before abolition? You don't sound to me like a tearaway if I'm honest, quite the reverse actually. If you did do so how did it happen and what was the procedure, where did it take place and were your parents informed first and how did you feel afterwards?

Whilst I can fully accept that kind of punishment for significant antisocial misbehaviour I struggle to understand how anybody could think it right to give it to somebody over some poorly presented technical drawings. You've got to be a thoroughly unpleasant individual as a teacher to think that's appropriate in those circumstances. Just don't tell me you went to a school with such warped values that it dealt a slipper or cane to poor work and yet let the intimidating bullying d**kheads roam around unchallenged and unpunished a bit like police now who turn up and cuff people who make others anxious for non crimes and yet avoid any contact with robbery victims and the like.

Can I give you a virtual hug, because you don't seem to have had many people in your life who have made you feel good about yourself. There has been so much negativity towards you on here (although it might just be from one place in truth) without realising the depth of your own school experience and what it's left you like.

Hugh, Thanks for your offer a couple of days ago. I hope I catch you in time.
I believe the PSA test doesn't always produce reliable results and a DRE cannot necessarily detect cancer, but can a DRE indicate whether the prostate feels (or is) normal and healthy? How would you describe the purpose of a DRE please?

Being out on the sports field in inclement weather each winter was obviously to be expected but I remember being stuck out in the middle of a huge school playing field sometime in around about the middle of May playing cricket in '67 when a storm approached in Berkshire. There was no rain, a lot of threatening sky but it kept dry except for an awful lot of mainly sheet lightning flashing across it that developed and yet we didn't go inside. I have never felt so scared in school as that, in the open with lightning about. Totally reckless, even many of the boys with me playing cricket knew it wasn't safe to stay in the open but we found our PE master's assurance that the chance of being killed by the cricket ball being bowled at our heads was a thousand times more likely than a bolt from the sky less than reassuring I can tell you. We weren't even allowed to pull the bad light trick that the professionals do. We'd have been inside in seconds with a quick sprinkle of drizzle though.

This comment by Matt;

<taking us out in all kinds of grotty weather making us as wet, freezing, dirty and miserable as he could manage topped off by the regulation compulsory shower where you try to squeeze about 30 naked boys during the same three minutes into a space built for no more than 15>



Yes, yes and yes again. Very, very, VERY relatable to me this.

I'm getting PTSD just memorizing it now - I joke just a touch. It was par for seventies Britain.

It was our teachers jobs to work us in PE to within an inch of our lives it felt. Sometimes we'd be so knackered we could barely lift our legs to walk away from the lesson at the end of it, the gym was so intense. Over wet and windy winters we would get plastered in earth so much that we had to remove a lot of what we had on BEFORE we got into the changing room so we could keep it as clean as possible. This meant hanging around outside until our teachers grabbed some clear bags for us to stick our boots and any other mud caked kit into, socks, shorts, shirt, you name it. You'd get guys down to their pants outside before getting past our teachers. Keeping the changing room clean and tidy was as important to them as getting us clean too.

We were not allowed to waste hot water either once we got inside and actually had two teachers who would physically push us into our school shower like sardines before the water went on. PE class sizes seemed big, at least 40 guys, three separate classes together. I think they must have been train guards on a busy rush hour route in a previous life who pushed ever more people onto a crowded train before closing the doors. None of us could leave and dry off until they turned the water off again which felt like ages but was about three or four minutes most times I suppose.

Circa 1973-7.

Modern kids would either snigger nervously or recoil in horror at this kind of thing now with all that grime and nudity throughout schooldays of the seventies. I think back and find it all mildly amusing. I've seen examples on here that sound just like one of the guys I know as a kid from back then who has what can best be described as a retrospective annoyance at what our school was like even though he wasn't annoyed at the time in those classes.

The guys at school in the seventies with me, even if we did get worked to exhaustion so often, were so obviously fitter and more capable than many today are at the same age in the same lesson. Now they even take a water bottle, or even energy drinks out with them to the lesson to hydrate constantly. Taking a swig of drink during lesson would have got you a rollicking once. I bet nobody here took in drinks during PE did they. Then there are the disposable and very bad for the environment packet wet wipes instead of an actual shower and the smellies to mask odours sprayed on.

It wasn't always better back in the old days. But it isn't better now either. Best to take a bit of both and mix the two.

John - your 'foggy' post of 1/9/22.

I remember one misty morning years back, running with friends down a field lane and a stag appearing out of the mist and pacing us for a few seconds. Magic!

T

Simon on 1st September 2022 at 14:09

You are right, Bill Turnbull at 66 was very young to die of prostate cancer and as I said, more men die with it than because of it.

That said, if you develop one of the virilent forms it will kill you. They way it generally does is by what are commonly known as secondaries - or metastatic cancer more accurately. From the prostate it spreads to more vital parts/organs so in the liver, bowel or bones it is far more likely to kill you. Once you have developed metastatic cancer it is much more difficult to treat, chemo will sometimes delay the progress but it is no longer operable/reversible.

Once again, if you are at ANY risk, please get checked.

Gentlemen, I've always been passionate about men's health issues, they are under funded and not as much to the fore as they should be. I will check back here for the next couple of mornings and be happy to try and answer any questions anyone wants to post but on Monday, I'm going away for the remainder of September and I will be 'off line' until I get back.

Many thanks for the interest. Yes,, you got it right New Brunswick in Canada.

I've been asked about rivalry from my four siblings who didn't go to a grammar like me, their eldest brother, well not really. They all still went to a well regarded secondary school close to the family home. They were all lucky in that regard as they could all just walk to school inside 15 minutes, or ride on a bike in 5 minutes and not leave home until about a quarter to nine most mornings and be back before 4pm. Whereas my grammar was actually nearly 20 miles from home and I had to rely on various methods of getting there from my dad taking me many times, to a bus, taxis and other lifts over the years. It meant I often left home long before 7.30am many days and on some of the worst days it could be gone 5.30pm or even 6pm before I actually got home. Not so bad in summer but a drag in winter, out in the dark and back in the dark. That was a long day especially with a stack of homework almost every night.

But as those I was at grammar with were not local to me I couldn't see them easily after school and rarely did. Then those who I had been in primary school with and lived nearby also kind of drifted away from me so I fell between the cracks so to speak. It seemed like a lot of work and very little play in term time, unlike the rest of my brothers and sister who I was sometimes rather more envious of than they were of me I think.

I never got too many chances in the week to get outside and do anything like the others, on bikes and all that. It was my dad who pushed for me to go the grammar route. Why me and not the others after me I never really got to the bottom of. They were all just as intelligent as me, no thickos in our family.

I remember the school rugby top was actually quite a dull pink and I would wear it at home sometimes during weekends. I played after I left school until my early twenties but haven't since.

I mentioned how I got a lot of confidence through sport and the requirements came easily to me. My grammar P.E definitely made me quite fit and pleased with how I looked by the age of 15. If anything I was guilty of over confidence at times looking backwards. I went through a phase where I would walk around the house much of the weekend without any top on at all and would even forget about it and once went to a neighbours and came back to a maternal berating for "making myself a laughimng stock" according to my mum at the time!

I remember comparing with my brother two years younger than me what he was doing at his school compared to me at grammar and as far as P.E goes much of it seemed remarkably similar. I think I might have had a wider range of choices but he seemed to do a lot more swimming at his secondary than I did at my grammar. But me and my brothers had all learnt to swim with an out of school intructor friend of the family at the nearby lido by the age of 8 with most of the strokes.

Unlike nowadays both myself at grammar and my brothers at secondary all seemed to do our gymwork inside predominently not wearing any tops at all. Yet the art of doing gym like this seems to have been lost over the past twenty years or so. Yet I actually think it is more likely to give the majority confidence in themselves and a healthy attitude to their own and others bodies by doing gymwork like that, rather than give people a nervous breakdown.

I'm thankful my harrasser/bully in school for the year was kicked out when I was 13 and also that he was not in my actual class. If he had been then just maybe my story would not have proved quite so okay in the end. Do you know what, even after more than forty years I have often wondered if I should own up to taking the cash from the family money tin all those years ago. You never quite let go despite everything you end up achieving and moving onto as an adult.

Agreed. Loved the foggy footy memory. That really made me smile. It sounds slightly comical that you plodded on with a game like that.

I'm a member of a golf club and often go out quite early for a few rounds with a couple of others and one occasion it was still a dense heavy lingering summer fog/mist taking ages to clear so we obviously just went into the club house for breakfast, a drink and came home not hitting a shot.

Simon I am not a doctor but I think I remember reading that prostate cancer is more likely to spread to other organs than other cancers. Terrible illness, wherever you get it though.