Burnley Grammar School

Wow, once again after a few sensible and well thought through accounts we get within 24 hours two almost identical posts of men who as boys 40+ years ago are now concerned that a few fathers saw their bare bottoms in a changing room when they were there legitimately because their own lads were part of the team and the absolute horror, school PE masters were also present - as they should have been.

And to crown the credibility of it all, in the middle of the two we have Alan. I really don't know and can't imagine why I'm not surprised by that, whipping up abuse where there was none.

Very similar memories to Stephen’s of doing out of school hours team games like football in the late seventies. Competitive parents like mine against others. Been there done everything Stephen said. All our parents milling about while boys changed and washed together with total communal group nudity comings and goings. It was not seen as inappropriate yet back at home my dad would not barge in the bathroom on me at 11 or 12 and after but after school sport was different if he was at it. Work that out! A few years later I couldn’t even take an innocent picture at a nativity!

I totally agree with Stephen Breech. It was as though kids, till about 1520 years ago were second class citizens with no rights - not even to privacy - at all, treated as if they were cattle. I too am glad kids don't go through that today.

In answer to Hugh. I am sure you will agree with me, even if there was "only" a small amount of people with questionable motives, even one is too many. It's a bit like murder, of hit and runs - there are only a "small" number (well perhaps not in London today), but when you consider the psychological damage it can cause, it doesn't mean we shouldn't come down hard in it ,because it "only" forms a small number of miscreants. The damage these criminals inflict can cause lifelong problems.

I remember being on the school football team for a couple of years around about 1980/82 when I was a 13/15 year old and we played a lot of weekend games and one or two after school in the evenings when a lot of the parents would come along and support us sometimes, mostly the dads it has to be said.

Times change and indeed they have, not just since the 50s and 60s but spectacularly even since the 80s. When I played school team football privacy was completely non-existent, something that has only come to dawn on me long after the event, it never really registered at the time. Before and after games our dads and sometimes older brothers were actually allowed total access to our changing rooms and most of them piled in with us and just hung around chatting and often getting in the way as it could get a bit crowded. School made us shower just like regular PE classes and that meant even with all these other people hanging around after our games which was the time when most of the dads actually came into our changing room. My recollection is that none of them thought it wasn't the place to be just because we were all getting showered and were quite obviously walking about naked and infact could be seen clearly whilst in our showers from the outside of them anyway. My own dad would hang about like this on a number of the weekend games and saw me and all my friends naked, and I was seen the same by all my friends dads, which at the age of 13/14 isn't quite the ticket and I do recollect wishing they'd keep out but of course nobody felt they could say anything and our PE teachers were all there too anyway and allowing it all to happen. The whole concept of any privacy seemed completely alien, as if well you are our sons and we are your fathers so whats to be concerned about.

Even more remarkable was that some of the dads had some quite posh and expensive cameras with them and I can remember photos not only being taken outside around the games we did but some being taken inside our changing room and on one occasion one of them seemed to have what I think was either a cine camera or a very early camcorder style handheld camera which he filmed with one day and even did so inside our changing room with many of the school team around and about naked as the day we were born. For all I know he pointed it direct at us showering as the view would have been a clear one of the lot of us. Kind of like the actual TV programme that generated so much discussion for much the same thing recently on here. I have no idea whose dad this might have been from this distant passage of time but would love to know as there could well be similar types of pictures or cine/video out there of me doing school football on Saturday mornings including the after match situation.

A completely unimagineable situation now, rightly so I think.

My father often used to say that the past was another country. He had been in the army during WW2 and was part of the brigade that liberated Belsen. He never talked about it and when things like that came up was when he used his phrase, the past is another country.

I guess over the years since WW2 there has been more social change than in any other time in the history of the UK or for that matter across Europe. The world of growing up in the 1950s and 1960s is indeed now another country and as someone who was a boy during those years, my early years compared to those who are growing up now, well there is no common ground and I doubt I would recognise the experience compared to my own.

I am one of six boys and my mother died as my youngest brother was born when I was four so to all intents and purposes I was brought up by my father who was very abley assisted by his own parents who lived nearby.

We lived in a three bedroom semi built between the wars and it was a happy home. My father was there as much as he could be but for instance he wasn't home from work when we returned from school so every day, year in and out, my grandparents were there and my grandmother made our evening meal with a kindness and devotion and dedication which I only appreciated long after she died by which time I was 30.

My father ran the house a bit like an army camp and he was pretty strict but we also had a lot of fun. There was one large bedroom which had been my parents room, a second reasonably sized room and a box room.

After my mother died, my father had the large bedroom turned into a bunk room for my brothers and I, he moved into the box room and the second bedroom became his study. Downstairs were a kitchen, dining room and sitting room. There was one bathroom and a separate toilet.

In the mornings, we were not allowed to lock the bathroom door or indeed at any other time. We had to wash and shower quickly before school, my father set great (military) store by us being clean and well presented. The bathroom was a shared space but we thought nothing of it, we shared a bedroom so we were used to seeing each other naked. My father used the bathroom too in the same time frame so we were also quite used to seeing him naked. In all probablility in other households at the time lads didn't see their father's naked at all but for us it was quite normal and we thought nothing of it.

My father always warned but failing to take note of a warning did result in a bare bottom caning, it didn't happen often, we each maybe got three or four a year but at the time, the range of punishments that was meted out to my friends ranged from a telling off, through a grounding, stopping pocket money to degrees of corporal punishment. Most got corporal punishment and the cane on bare bottom was normal. Needless to say my grandfather heartily approved of this and thought it wasn't used often enough!

The past is another country.

Hugh on 8th August 2022 at 19:16

Thank you, one a gain a post full of common sense and information.

From what has been posted it is clear that in some schools punishments were severe, especially those administered to a bare bottom, but I did not realise that it has been stated that parents used the same punishment on a bare bottom. I must have been treated leniently. My dad never used a cane or anything like it. However, because I was in shorts until about the age of 13 or 14 , punishment was a sharp slap round the bare legs and that stung. I am glad that my dad did not make me stand and take down my trousers and pants because I think that would be as demeaning as receiving the punishment.

Rich C, thank you for your posts about your time growing up. I went to a boys state grammar school but the lad who lived next door went to another school in town that was an Irish Christian Brothers grammar school.

I remember he gave a very similar account of events to you of daily strapping of hands at the front of the class for something as minor as a spelling mistake or failing at a mental maths question and then the much more serious 'bare arse leathering' for anything a bit more serious.

I experienced nothing llike that though the cane was in use at my grammar school and I would say most of us got it at one time or another, I certainly did.

In those days of course it wasn't uncommon for you to be 'dealt with' by your mates parents if you misbehaved at their house or on their watch and my mates father who was Irish had a hefty leather belt that on occasion was applied with force to our bare bottoms and equally, when at my house, my father was not averse to delivering a bare bottom caning when he thought it was required. We both thought the cane was a lot worse but it was used less often.

I've said before, I'm retired but was a GP for many years. I almost hesitate to make this comment because of some of the sheer antagonism that has gone on here both in recent days but also in the past.

In very many years of practice in a reasonbly big GP practice - 10 partners and as many again as juniors, only on two occasions in the last ten years did we have a case of abuse, in neither case was it my patient but these things are discussed at clinical meetings. In both cases, social services were involved and all protocols were followed. On a small number of occasions we suspected abuse we always followed protocols but on those occasions we were proven wrong.

I must therefore conclude that actual instances of abuse are so few and far between they cannot in any context be considered common and I doubt they ever were. No doubt things happened but also, memories change with time. Personally, I would not wish to trust a memory of many years ago to make a serious allegation about anyone, others of course feel differently.

With that, I will let the matter rest.

Sorry for such a rapid reappearance, but this has just come up on the BBC news website, in connection with the Nicky Campbell story I mentioned last week:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62442766

I am not, and have never, for one minute, suggested that every school had pests like this "man", but I was just making the point that far too many teachers in the past got away with behaviour which would have been highly questionable and/or illegal even back in the days when it occurred, except that the lads who complained were either not believed or made to shut up about it,

Andy: "Oh dear, here he goes again and posting in the middle of the night, a true keyboard warrior who posts all night and skives all day."

What a truly rancorous little man you are. FYI I am self-employed and I happen to work better early in the day, but today I "clocked off".so to speak, at 1830 this evening, having started at 0500 this morning. I was awake early this morning as it was a very warm night and I needed to shower. Is that alright with you?. haven't broken any "Andy" rules have I?. .As for "skiving", well you were scribbling away with your latest little insult at 1530 this afternoon.....

I have no idea why you have this personal vendetta against me, and I can only suggest that if you have some axe to grind you take up my offer and email me directly, instead of boring the whole board with your neurotic tantrums on this forum. It is not what it was designed for, and i am sure many others are as bored by your antics as I am. But I will not just "go away" if and when I have something I want to say. If it upsets your sensibilities that much, I suggest you just don't read what I write.

The post placed at 3.26pm this afternoon seems to illustrate that its author does not have a clear head for obvious reasons for anyone who reads it.

Alan on 5th August 2022 at 04:14

Oh dear, here he goes again and posting in the middle of the night, a true keyboard warrior who posts all night and skives all day.

Several weeks ago, Andy said he was withdrawing from this board and for a few weeks he did and it was a peaceful place with adult discussion taking place and some excellent posts but then he couldn't stay away, up he pops with his usual drivel about abuse everywhere.

The number of lads, as has been pointed out among the millions who went through schools is statistically insignificant but Andy and his handles have to find abuse everywhere, something most lads have no concept of and continuing to insist it took place everywhere actually belittles the experience of those who did experience it. I maintain this is the behaviour of someone who carries guilt.

The poster in question continually throws out the allegation that I am an amateur psychologist. I know in what I say next I will have the Andy handles calling me a liar and challenging me to prove what I say, don't bother, I'm not going to any more than anyone else here is asked to prove what they do. I'm not and 'amateur' psychologist but I do recognise someone who is utterly sick and posting the same nonsense repeatedly and has for years.

I do wish he would cease, desist and seek treatment or alternatively hand himself to the proper authorities to investigate his earlier behaviour.

There has been some throwing around of the word 'troll' on here, so I decided to take a look at the dictionary definition to be clear to myself what it really means in the context of a discussion, and here it is;

'a person who intentionally antagonizes others online by posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content'

I'll let others judge who they think this definition clearly fits best.

@ Robbie - thanks for your post - especially about night-time work. It deserves a fuller reply than this which I'll try and do later.

Andy wrote: "
"On the other hand we have Alan, Laura, Nick, John, Biff and a few more who post the same repetitive drivel".

Drivel?. Other people's experiences are written off by you in that ill-mannered way?. One might make the same accusation about you, with your pseudo-intellectual amateur psychology.

If you can't keep it civil , I would ask you to address any complaints you have about me TO me - I gave my email address expressly for that purpose once on here, as you trawl old posts you will find it easily enough, but I assume you haven't got the guts to do that. You are one of those people who conduct your ill-natured campaigns in public, and probably don't have the guts to do it on a person to person basis. That says more about you than it does about me, or any of the other people you seem to have problems with,.

What on earth is happening in this day and age when people with different opinions cannot simply disagree in an agreeable manner with each other and remain polite despite even the strongest differences of opinion they hold on subjects. Civilised discourse. I recommend it.

Do we really need to try and recreate some of the worst aspects of the old school playground within a benign school memory board setting groups of people against each other.

My goodness, the Alan handles are busy this afternoon and in recent days uncovering abuse where people say there isn't any and looking though old posts looking for things that are only coincidences but of course they can't be because abuse is everywhere.

Thank goodness we have Robbie, Rich C, Roy C, Johan, Richard, Tim H, Paul J, Bob, Marcus, Bernard, Billy, Paul, Devon Lad, Hugh, Trevor, Stan and many more who post their innocent memories.

On the other hand we have Alan, Laura, Nick, John, Biff and a few more who post the same repetitive drivel uncovering abuse in every post even when the poster is clear there isn't any and believing that everyone else who posts here is in some way involved. It's called reaction formation, something of an over reaction by guilty people for the sins in their past.

School bully stories like the one here from 1973 are always a welcome read. If I'd ever let my fist fly at one then I'd probably have been the kind who hurt herself with a broken wrist or knuckles and gone away nursing my own injury. It always feels like a risk to do that but it's good when it pays off.

Andy + Johan. These two names reappeared at much the same time and have both acted in a remarkably similar fashion in tone and style with a focus on attacking one specific individual, Alan, who also reappeared. I believe the impression is trying to be given that multiple people are attacking Alan when infact he is being singled out for the most part by just one.

I do not understand why people waste their time doing this and being so angry in what should be a pleasant discussion with friendly arguments being made and debated.

For what it's worth I found the comment placed under the Johan name in reply to Laura to be nothing short of absolutely disgraceful and lacking any class.

John hits the bullseye there.

I remember the afternoon break on 5th April 1973 when I cracked a well timed right hander straight at the face of a 14 year old bullying the younger brother of my best friend in school. Over a few weeks he'd extorted a lot of money in silver coins from him. He done the same to some others and taken food from them too. I left him with a great shiner of a black eye for days afterwards. You should have seen those who swarmed around this threatening maniac melt away from him in the days afterwards isolating him and I got a few pats on the back for having the gumption to go for him and it gave me some credibility and respect. I was always quiet and introverted and I acted completely out of character in a fleeting moment of fury and adrenaline which made what I did all the more powerful. I never got into trouble for landing one on him, even though the teachers saw his black eye and knew I'd done it, although no teacher saw me actually do it. I even managed to get a lot of the money he extorted returned. What I learned that day was that many school bullies actually have a glass jaw and they might look all big and threatening, this guy was bigger than me, but with one well aimed launch like you really mean it you can bring them crumbling back down to size in seconds with an intimidatory reputation they can't recover very easily.

TimH on 3rd August 2022 said;

Rich C - agree with you pretty much whole-heartedly.
Roy C - agree with you.
I'm always a bit bothered about people who post messages on these boards in the middle-of-the-night.



Agree with you Tim on the first two points. What a great poster Rich C is.

As Roy C said, the best comes from first hand experiences and I like to hear how similar or different other peoples school life was and the attitudes they took to things like PE. There seems to be a definite divide of opinion much like how I remember the sporty and non sporty kids divide in my own classes.

Worried about night posting, I suppose you might mean myself as one of those who has stuck a couple of night time posts. Quite simple really, as I work at a media organisation on their night desk and have some quieter moments and a break that gives me a chance to read up when I grab a quick moment. I'm not one of those quiet solitary insomniacs sitting in a pokey old bedroom browsing social media all night and sleeping all day with no job to go to. At work in an air conditioned building is the best place to be on a humid summer night rather than trying to sleep back at home in a stuffy bedroom. In the best place right now before I start work shortly. I live increasingly in the 24 hour society and it suits me very well. I'd have probably chosen to go to school from 12am to 6am if the chance had ever been available. Love the night time.

Rich C is everything that this history thread should be about.

Well written, intelligent, informative and deeply personal. Plus answers asked questions put to him in a nice manner.

Rich I thought your philosophy on life was hugely inspiring following the childhood you described to us here. It's to your immense credit that you overcame that and achieved so much and it was so pleasing to read your ultimate positivity.

Johan to Laura - "your post is totally inappropriate and full of breath taking arrogance."

No it wasn't - but yours was.

Some people don't seem to like seeing some professional level headed common sense being written on this thread do they.

I wonder why?

Laura on 3rd August 2022 at 00:14

I suspect you would be able to find abuse anywhere, congratulations. Please do not patronise me, your post is totally inappropriate and full of breath taking arrogance.

A well made and brilliantly written post Laura.

A little tale of mine from the past weekend around where I live. There are two 17 year old boys (Jake and Leo) living either side of me a couple of homes along the road. Both go to the same school. I know one very well, Jake. The other lad, Leo is considered a very quiet and polite young man who has never been a bother to anyone and never makes a nuisance of himself in any way at all, and comes from a decent family and upbringing. Both boys do actually and the neighbourhood is a good one and the school they go to is too.

Yet at the weekend speaking to the family of Jake, the boy that I know very well I was shocked to discover a very different side to this other quiet polite boy in our road, Leo. I found out much to my amazement that in school for the past couple of years this well regarded 17 year old Leo had actually been making the life of the 17 year old Jake that I know an absolute misery and unhappy with persistant low level petty bullying in school and even outside of school. I would never have believed it possible as Leo projects a completely unassuming, quiet personality who keeps his head down and behaves himself and has never given anyone living nearby any reason to doubt this.

But speaking with Jake's grandmother, not his mother, at their house I mentioned the other lad Leo in a positive way and then suddenly found myself confronted with indignation and a lesson in what quiet respectful Leo had been getting up to in school, with another boy, against Jake who was also present while I was talking to his gran. It seemed like a targetted campaign of bullying harrassment had been ongoing for two years. Jake is a boy who is thoughtful, polite and quite sensitive but when younger was actually a bit of a hyper child but has calmed down into what you'd call a rather nice sweet young man with a caring attitude. The other quiet lad Leo is more sporty, plays football a lot and all that kind of thing. I'd say he's quietly confident, but as I've said never a problem in any way ever. Yet in school and with another lad his own age who lives in the same road he has been creating trouble and making Jake unhappy for a long period of time.

I thought it was worth a mention here.

Rich C - agree with you pretty much whole-heartedly.

Roy C - agree with you.

Johan - interesting comments - Thanks for posting. Unfortunately some people look to have their own agenda.

I'm always a bit bothered about people who post messages on these boards in the middle-of-the-night.

Gentlemen, how about we stop feeding the troll?

Through the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s many millions of boys passed through secondary schools. Most had a healthy and fulfilling time there and gained a decent education and I count themselves among them.

A few, a statistically insignficant number had a bad time including being abused perhaps sexually but the number was in relative terms very small and there is no evidence to the contrary.

On the child abuse enquiry, do remember that initially it was to be chaired by a judge, she was removed amidst allegations she was not independent, another lawyer was appointed who was also ousted and then a second judge was brought in from New Zealand, she could not have been anything but independent but she also quit. Judges would not have allowed hearsay evidence, do you see a theme?

Finally, a social worker was appointed, a social worker who had given credence to the most spurious claims in the past and all proceeded so the account of allegations being accepted about someone long dead by two people who were contradicted by many more would be par for the course.

Those who are obsessed with abuse generally have one of two backgrounds. They either have been abused or are abusers trying to cover their tracks. In either case, this isn't the place for them to be airing their thinking, as has been said before, this is a place for innocent memories and in the main that is what the vast majority post here, diverted at times by a couple of posters who I will refrain from naming but they know who they are. One is fortunately fairly scarce these days in their contributions, the other less so.

I would suggest we stop feeding the current poster or other handles with similar issues, as either an abuser or abused, they are not going to find what they need here.

Thank you.

There he goes again - Andy, the amateur psychologist. I didnt say EVERY school was tainted, but a good many were, except that people like yourself either were lucky enough not to attend a bad school or if you did, you were so morally superior you didn't notice what was going on.

Stop with the insults, and don't presume to tell, others if they are allowed to post or not in your not-so-humble opinion.