Burnley Grammar School

Biff - there;s a thread on Mumsnet today discussing the pros and cons of the school who let their Reception year kids strip to their underwear, for which read pants/knickers, since few, if any, kids wear vests these days, especially in the sort of temperatures we are experiencing this week.

So Monday and Tuesday are effectively "National Go To School In Your PE Kit Days" due to the exceptional heat.

I wonder how many brave boys who still do shirtless PE are going to trot off in the morning, rucksacks on their bare backs in just their shorts getting their feet burned on the hot pavements, which of course it will be hot enough to fry an egg on won't it (not).

Just don't forget your SPF50 if you've got more than a 10 minute walk to school.

;-)

There might have been another motive for British schools to make their boys go shirtless outdoors.

Commonwealth immigration was a contentious issue at this time and perhaps these old-fashioned schools feared the enrollment of immigrant children would upset the locals. At the same time, they might not have found it feasible to explicitly ban immigrants from enrolling their kids and so sought to subtly suggest to immigrants that their values would not be compatible with school policy.

It is common knowledge that commonwealth cultures value modesty therefore immigrants from these cultures would not be comfortable with their sons going shirtless around girls or their daughters running about with shirtless boys (who might not even have been from their commonwealth background, which would have made immigrant parents even less comfortable.)

Perhaps these schools hoped sending their boys out barechested to run cross country with girls would make any immigrants who saw them think twice about enrolling their kids there.

I'm sure schools in the dim and distant past had a weekly quota for cane use.

Speaking with my own father many years ago he told me that everyone he knew at school had got it at some point, even the good boys felt it. Perhaps some teachers looked for reasons to give it out even to those who behaved themselves. Some of the reasons he spoke of seemed trivial, much like some of those Don mentioned. Who canes for the wrong gym kit, surely not.

Physical abuse to minors is and was abhorrent.

Thinking about cold showers in school might be a good idea to try and cool down today!

Our 1970's showers in school never went beyond barely lukewarm and would often suddenly run completely cold on us while we were in them. Not so bad in the kind of weather we have right now but rather rubbish when you'd just come off a cold wet and windy playing field needing to get parts of that playing field that had attached itself to you off your body. That thing called dirt and muck that always seemed in abundance on school fields.

Our sports class got a massive put down from my sports teacher for complaining about just this when it kept happening. His response to us was something along the lines of telling us that mud and cold water did no harm and it was actually good for us so stop moaning and get to it.

But cold water doesn't clean you properly does it? Not when you've got mucky legs or sweaty armpits to deal with!

On the few times we actually had what I'd call a decent warm shower I was almost in shock.

Remembering school showers is a weird thing because they remain such a strong memory recall. Anyone else feel that too?

Stuart - you got hot showers after PE? Must have been a soft school ;-)

We only ever had cold ones, there was just no hot water supply to the showers but the cold was full force, a bit like a fire hose and powerful so no escaping it.

To pick up Hugh's point, yes, I agree, the cane had an unmatched bite, burn and sting. I got it a few times at school but never bare but that was the ultimate sanction - one stop short of being expelled. I got the belt bare at home and that was bad enough.

At my all boys prep and senior schools in the 1970s early 80s, corporal punishment was in common use. Plimsoll for younger, cane as you got older. In the senior school you got sent to your Housemaster rather than the Head. The Housemasters wielded the power as well as the cane.

PE teachers often get a bad press, ours were good teachers , my experience was similar to Trevor’s, proper gymnasium exercise for PE ropes, vaults etc , games of dodge ball before compulsory shower.
Good exercise in white shorts and shirt.
The plimsoll was only wielded for stupid or dangerous behaviour.

Most awkward time was being in pe class in winter and having a school fire alarm drill! Flipping freezing. Never been so pleased to have a hot shower afterwards.

Getting corporal punishment for something you did outside school gates at the weekend, well that school really thought it owned you didn't it.

Trevor on 15th July 2022 at 15:02

As you probably remember, the cane has a bite, burn and sting which is unmatched by anything else which no doubt is why it was regarded as a suitable sanction for errant boys. Bare, the bite, burn and sting are much greater and I've no doubt a degree of humilitation was part of the punishment too especially for an older lad.

At home, we always got it bare from my father and as I said, at school from the headmaster. Strangely, I minded that at school less because there was nothing personal about it, the headmaster caned a number of boys each week and in some ways the whole experience was anonymous. At home, I hated dropping my trousers/shorts and underpants with my father looking on, that wasn't anonymous at all and it was far worse. It wasn't that I was a shy lad, I shared a room with two of my brothers so we saw each other naked daily and places like changing rooms and communal showers didn't bother me but in front of my father, I hated it.

Replying to Craig,
You were lucky Craig being allowed to go shirtless in class during that hot summer in the 1970s. We pleaded with our teachers to let us take our shirts off in class and our pleas fell on deaf ears. Perhaps it was because it was a Co Ed school and parents of girls might have complained.

In response to the previous comments I once got struck by the cane at school in the late 60's for something I did outside of school and outside of school hours - smoking and drinking on a Saturday morning and getting seen by the deputy head who I didn't know lived in a road close to the friend I was with who was much older. I was thirteen and he was three years older, introducing me to smokes and liquor. It was the first time I'd ever done it.

When I was next in school I was confronted and escorted to the headmasters office by his deputy who then gave me an ultimatum that either my parents would be informed of my behaviour and called in or I accept their immediate punishment of the cane. It was no contest, I very reluctantly accepted the cane rather than my parents fury which would have been worse, so I was given three swift strokes, two on my bum and a final one over my hands right away in his office. I didn't deny what I'd done. It didn't stop me and I just went elsewhere to smoke in future.

We had a P.E teacher who marched two from class off to the headmasters office one lesson for acting dangerously, high up on the climbing frames and pushing another boy off from a height, hurting his ankle or knee I think. They were caned for that.

Repeated failure to bring the proper P.E clothing, or any at all was threatened as a caning offence by our P.E teachers and so was getting caught not using the showers more than once, amongst many of the more obvious caning offences like swearing for instance. I never knew of anyone in my circle who received a cane for those kind of things, everyone always seemed good at having the right P.E clothing and nobody I ever noticed dodged showering.

I earlier viewed the clip placed here of the children's health information film from the 80's and good on those kids for doing that. I know there has already been a lot of chat on here about it and their rights. To be honest if I'd been in that situation in the late 60's I know I'd not have felt I'd have had any right to refuse to do that even if I didn't like it and I sure would not have dreamed of even saying anything about it.

Remember my comment on 12th June 2022 anyone? Check it out, because;

So hot next week they're telling them to wear their PE kits to school reports the media tonight.

I wonder if they will be letting/allowing the boys to go shirtless the whole day in normal classes like they did for me and boys in my class/school during the exceptional heat in summer 1976 for a couple of weeks that July.

It does look like it will be even hotter than back then.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-62182530

Replying to Dean,

You definitely did that lad a favour. It was much better for him to stop avoiding showers and standing out from the rest of the lads by being treated differently. It’s better to face up to things in life instead of trying to avoid them. You helped him to fit in and gain confidence.

I noticed a description of 'hard nut PE teachers' within Dean's honest and guilt laden post. I'd love to hear a definition of such a teacher and what that actually means in practice.

Hugh's comments are interesting. Our all boys school used the cane and plimsoll for punishment. As far as I know there was no bare bottom caning. I wonder, was the idea of the bare bottom to add humiliation to the punishment, or additional pain!
It certainly would not happen today. Even parents it seems are restricted to how they can chastise their children.

On another issue P.E. It was that. PHYSICAL exercise. I remember it was held in the school hall. No custom made gym. Climbing bars swung out from the walls, and climbing ropes also swung out. There was one teacher to about 30 boys and he could not watch all of them at the same time. So no health & Safety. But we were worked hard. Climbing , vaulting horse in addition to press ups and star jumps. Yes it was physical, and we all crowded into the shower afterwards.

There are those who post here who want to doubt how different things were back in the 1960s, 70s and even 80s.

Today there is a report out into forced adoptions which were back then quite common for 'unmarried' mothers where the baby was taken, sometimes forcibly from the mother either at or very soon after birth and adopted. There have been huge investigations into this in Ireland but it happened. here too.

As a medical student I remember one such case where the mother had a diagnosed mental health condition and in advance it had been decided she wouldn't be able to care for her baby. Before the birth, she was sectioned under the mental health act and within an hour of the birth, she was taken to one of the old psychiatric hospitals and detained there. She never even got to see or hold her baby. I was distressed for weeks about what I had seen but was told to 'get over it' and that 'social services knew best'. It still haunts me sometimes.

Equate that with healthy lads having no choice but to take communal showers after PE as normal and some of the regimes that were around at the time and they pale into insignificance in comparison to that wrong that was done to new mothers.

There are those who don't want to believe that PE masters wielded large plimsolls to keep order, they did, I remember it well and felt it more than a few times. In the classroom, every master (boys school, all male teachers) had a cane which they used, I probably got it once a term.

Being sent to the headmaster either because you had done something serious or because the teacher was just exasperated with you or maybe you had been seen outside school up to 'mischief' got you a 6-8 stroke bare bottom caning. The 'ultimate sanction' was 12 and yes it was legal in spite of all the beliefs about it, I never got a 12 but I probably got 6-8 at least once a year on one occasion because I had failed to give up my seat on a bus to an old lady and even though it was a Saturday and I wasn't wearing my school uniform and hadn't even seen her (no excuse) I had brought the school into disrepute evidenced simply by the complaint being made.

Telling my parents any of it would have resulted in a session with my father and one of the canes he kept hanging on the hall stand, ever ready to deal with my brothers and I should the need arise.

So times have changed more than someone who wasn't there back then can, I think imagine.

It wasn't all bad though, I was a happy lad without too many cares in the world. Stan touched on body image, I was a fit and healthy lad and a bit like the lads in the shower scene video, not an ounce of fat to be seen, just growing up fit and strong as were my mates, we could have been those lads just as easily. Peer group pressure to conform didn't exist as it does now, thankfully, social media wasn't in existence. You might be teased a bit for a minute or two if in whatever you were doing you 'dropped the ball' sometimes literally but it was over as fast as it started. The worries were usually getting your homework done and passing your exams

While I certainly wouldn't wish the treatment of new mothers to be as it was then, all other things considered, I think we were far luckier growing up in the 1960s and 70s than children are now. Nothing about then would make me swap it for now.

I'm not proud of myself for the following admission from my school days but following on from what Stan writes on attitudes past and present it's spurred me on to write about an extreme example from my school of a mate who went to a lot of trouble to avoid being "seen" so to speak.

At school we had this chap in our games class who was known widely among us all as the boy who was "scared to show his willy". We knew he was oddly over self conscious even at our junior school when he often avoided swimming and when he did he locked himself in the toilet to change into and out of his kit. We used to taunt him that when he went up to our next school there was no way he was going to avoid the showers and we'd see him then. Cruel I know. When we went up at the age of twelve myself and a few from juniors ended up in his class and knew what he was like already and he didn't change his ways. But what really wound us up was that while we all had to get into the school's showers after our games lessons he actually managed to sweet talk our seriously hard nut PE teachers into allowing him to be different from us and not use them. Over a few weeks of this it really wound a lot in class up that he was getting away with things we were being made to do, and most were not concerned too much about anyway, but it just seemed so unfair at that age. It all came to a head one afternoon when our teacher absented himself for a moment and a window of opportunity arose to "get him" and a few of us made an impulsive grab hold of him as we got ready to shower and pulled his pants down and off and bundled him into the showers along with us all against his will with him attempting to kick out and shouting at us all the time with others laughing and mocking him. I remember him being made to stay there and held in place getting soaked. Then teacher heard the commotion and saw what we'd done and he ran back out. I remember all the heavy breathing and adrenaline of it all from him especially, but even those of us who did it. I am not pleased with myself.

The crazy thing was that he was a good looking chap, in good shape, nicer than me and some of the others and he sure didn't need to be scared to show what nature gave him. I never understood this chap and why he was like that. We all got a very minor reprimand for doing that and could have expected worse I think. But having done that it changed our PE teacher's mind and as we'd now seen him in all his glory that he'd spent so long trying to hide from the rest of class the teacher just told him to get on with it like the rest of us from now on and stop being so soft.

We soon found out that the reason he'd been allowed to escape showers unlike the rest of us was because his parents had written a letter to school about it. But then our PE teacher brought them both into school one day into his office and explained that this was having an adverse effect on him and making matters far worse and he'd be best getting stuck in like the rest of us and they agreed. The chap told us all this himself at the time. I think he grudgingly knew it. He shouldn't have been indulged in the first place.

In the end I'm sure he must have regretted it because a year or so after all this happened, I suppose we were something like 13 or 14 by then, he behaved just the same as all the rest of us and you'd never have believed what he used to be like. At least he lost the tag of being "the boy who's scared to show his willy" which could have lasted his entire schooling until he left if we hadn't done what we did. I don't excuse it, it was a form of bullying and not really acceptable I know all that.

I just could not work out why anyone would get themselves into such a state about showing their body to the point where they must have asked their mum and dad to write a letter to school to ask to not do something like a shower which we all did. It was only ever going to end in a mess and far bigger embarrassment than actually just going along with it and doing it.

Something was written here a while ago by a teacher who said that all schools have to have full working washing facilities if they do PE lessons over an certain age, I think it was 11. Well all schools do PE lessons over that age so that must mean that all schools have to have working washing facilities, namely showers I presume, so why if they have to have them in school are so many having them but ignoring them being used. That does not make sense to me.

When I was at upper school (85-91) I had no issue with showers being mandatory and that was the expectation. Anything other than that would have been a major surprise actually. I fully consented to them being mandatory without questioning it in any way. I still think all schools doing PE up to sixteen should be providing things the same as I did it and why not?

Perhaps it's actually because fewer boys now are being made to share the group showers experience with each other after games classes from the age of 11 to 16 that they have increased body consciousness issues about themselves. Sharing the showers naked with your classmates regularly throughout school is probably far more positive than negative for many. I'm pleased it's an experience I was made to share. It was not harmful in any way at all.

Body image and expectation for boys what to wear or not seems to have changed drastically in the last 20 years or so.
Since some posters have mentioned showering at school I have noticed that when I was younger all boys showered naked without a care in the changing room at the local swimming pool that I have been attending for a long time since the 80s.
Things started to change about 25 years ago and now notice that all the boys at the pool now shower in their swimsuits in the male changing room.
It seems that even most of the older males are now showering in their swimsuits.
Like others here I am also wondering what caused all this sudden change of body image in the male showering rooms, both at school and in public pools.
Growing up and in my youth I never remember us boys having any issues with showering naked together, whether at school, after sports or in public pools changing rooms.
Things have certainly changed in this regard.
This may also explain why nobody saw any big deal in those fitness educational films mentioned here showing boys showering naked in schools which were shown as an educational film in many or most schools.
Today we see it differently and maybe even amazed that such a scene was shown in an educational film in the 70s or 80s because of our current culture.

This article in Vogue makes for an interesting reaf on the latest tpoic being discussed here:

https://www.vogue.co.uk/mini-vogue/article/children-going-naked

Trevor, yes a very british thing. I have travelled all over europe from Denmark to Sloevnia to Spain and see that lots of families have younger kids happily playing naked on the beach and no one is bothered about it. Only the prudish brits!

I do not young boys worry about having their tops of in a pool. As a complete contrast to Tanya's comments, On Sunday we were at a family event in my sister in laws garden. There were children form our families present, and there was a paddling pool. two girls aged about 6 or 7 had brought swimming costumes the boy about the same age had not. Not problems his parents took off his shorts and he went in in his pants. he was not bothered just wanted to enjoy the water.
Interestingly enough, I notice that when we go on holiday to Spain, when we are on the beach there are many families where the children run a round without a stitch on and these are sometimes a bolder than infants.
covering up must be a "British thing!"

Tanya, surely the reason for boys to wear t -shirts in a garden pool on the hottest day of the year is protection from UV radiation. The sun doesn't shine very fiercely in an indoor swimming pool!

Countering your observations today Jim and there was recently a chat about a school making the kids, boys as well, all wear tops in the pool. Peering across to my near neighbour this afternoon she had a large pool inflated with all the kids around. All the boys were in the pool in t-shirts and shorts, not one of the 5 or 6 of them was how you'd expect to see them. It made me wonder why and if she's been infected by some of the stranger ideas mentioned on one of the other threads recently. Such a massive contrast to what Harry wrote here last week about his own childhood. I don't believe all those boys at the age of about 10 were all crushingly shy to do that. It must have been an active adult decision surely.

To Fiona's point

Coming back home mid morning today the two homes across the road from me had three bare chested window cleaners doing them, at the same time as a refuse lorry came along and two of the four chaps on that were shirtless too and then what looked like an unmarked parcel delivery driver put something through next door, no top on and then a cycling young man went past without a top. So I made that an astonishing 7 guys at the same time where I live inside a couple of minutes. I know it's very hot but that's quite unusual. I bet each of them probably loved a shirtless PE lesson when they were at school if the can work with their top off so easily.

Comment by: Grant on 8th July 2022
I saw the comment about middle school showers and wonder if anyone can beat the age I started to. I was 8 years and 2 months old when I started middle school.

Possibly can do that. Uppingham Junior School September 1971. My birthday is in August and we fully strip showered at that school before the end of the month I started, so probably I was about 8 years & a month or so. A couple of p/e lessons per week, Monday late morning and early Friday afternoons. I still have a yellowy old timetable for the 71/72 year, and later ones. I don't remember ever getting very messy doing junior level p/e or getting pushed to any extremes. But we always came back to the sound of running water and filed in line into the showers and stood around under the running water under male supervision until told to exit and dry off. It was just a warm water shower, no products, soap or anything very noticeable from memory. We all used to hang our p/e kits up in our cloakroom and just leave them there all term unless they went home for a wash, and that included the damp towels which would in my case go home just once a month and sometimes hang on a hot radiator to dry in the cloakroom. Nearly all of us used to leave our outdoors p/e footwear in the cloakroom for the entire school term without taking it home until holidays.

Another thing from there was they had a latrine style urinal in the same room and some of us would go up to it for a quick wee entirely naked before our shower, never afterwards, completely unabashed about the whole thing. Maybe getting stuck into these things early in life helps foster a healthy self worth and body image rather than waiting until later on when it looks like problems begin developing for some at an older age suddenly facing the demands of the school showers.

This goes back to the late 70s and if you deliberately left your games kit at home in order to miss doing PE outdoors, especially on a wet day the punishment was to strip down to only your pants, sit outside at a desk in the corridor near the main PE office and gym area of school and do written work like that while everyone else went outside. This happened to me once alongside about four others on the same day and it was a great deterent to me but it did not seem to deter one or two hard core types who repeatedly got shunted into the corridor in their pants to work at a desk. I never understood the few that refused to learn the lesson and laid themselves open to that.

If that isn't the very definition of taking clothing off as a punishment/humiliation effect then I don't know what is. It seems an open and shut case of it to me and it was a favourite sanction for boys at my school.

If you forgot kit on an inside PE day without a very good reason and a note then it was down to just your pants and get out there for the lesson itself, which made it far worse than doing the lesson properly in the first place in regulation shorts and striped vest. Yet despite this I well recall a hardcore bunch who set themselves up to face this sanction and never learnt and always seemed to expect a different outcome rather foolishly.

A good example of using being shirtless to belittle. How inappropriate. Some of those who say that they think shirtlessness was used as punishment or control are not wrong. Add plain and simple belittling to that list now. Actually the teachers I disliked the most myself were never part of the PE dept but the academic subjects I took. It would have taken more than a mars bar to entice me to get my top off in class, they were bought rather cheap. What a weirdo chemistry teacher he sounds but it does sound par for the course for the kind of crap some teachers got away with back then.

Going back to spring 1985 time. We had a rather weird chemistry teacher at my school. He took my lessons for a couple of years. I say weird because he was a really old fashioned curmudgeon even though he was not really all that old. Bearded with national health circular specs and never seen taking our lesson in anything other than his long white lab coat he hung over his suit and tie. He always came across as permanently exasperated at everyone and everything.

He also ran the school tuck shop and had access to a lot of sweets which he would use as currency to buy pupils acquiescence to certain requests he would make from time to time.

One time I was in one of his chemistry lessons and we were all gathered around the main desk up front to view some experiment with a heap of equipment set up. The kind of stuff that always involved test tubes, bunsens, gases and liquids changing colour or making a right pong.

Before he got going he asked for a "strong volunteer with muscles" to hold some of the equipment aloft for a period during the experiment. Some hands went up and I remember a lad called Gary getting picked. He went up and then got asked by my chemistry teacher to prove he had strong enough muscles to hold part of the experiment up for a minute or two above the desk. Next thing he's actually telling him to undo his tie and take his shirt completely off while he does the experiment demonstration. You didn't tend to argue with this chemistry teacher of ours, the look on Gary's face was a picture and he quite clearly didn't want to but reluctantly got his shirt off in the chemistry lesson for the next five minutes, to much amused mocking from quite a few and wise cracks from a girl or two in the mixed class. A few moments later he wanted another volunteer "with muscles" again to hold another part of the experiment up alongside Gary still doing his part. This time no hands went up and so he resorted to using his tuck shop currency to get another lad from class up and someone was brought off with the promise of a mars bar to get their shirt off as well while doing this chemistry experiment. It was very weird to see these two from class standing there aiding an experiment in a chemistry lesson without their shirts on as we all looked on. It kind of distracted from the actual purpose of what we were doing. I remember Gary who'd volunteered first ended up with a couple of chocolate bars from the tuck shop.

A very weird teacher who used the tuck shop to bribe boys to get their shirts off like that. I think he may have just enjoyed embarrassing people and know he had no problem belittling anyone in various ways all the time. What made his request all the stranger was he made both lads he called up to aid him wear large protective clear goggles over their eyes at the same time as telling them to remove their shirts to prove their muscle strength, thus leaving their bodies completely unprotected from any chemical mishap that might occur.

Trying to get inside the heads of some teachers was an impossible task.

Trevor - and not just "men and boys of all ages". Round here, - English East Midlands- many women and girls are out and about in front of males with their tops off. "My bra is enough" seems to be this summer's fashion statement.

With this hot weather now starting up no doubt there will be many boys and men of all ages taking off their tops in public. Are we supposed to ban that, in the way some schools now want boys to cover their bodies in swimming lessons?