Burnley Grammar School

Gosh this brings things back a bit. I also had a school medic tell my older brother he ought to be given circumcision back in the early 80s in his early teens. He never did. I remember him insisting on proving to me that he didn't need to. There was only sixteen months age gap between us both and I was in the next year down from him. Twelve months later I got given a similar diagnosis, whether it was the same medic who did me as my older brother no idea but it was just rubbish, neither of us needed it, so what was going on? My old folks wondered this at the time back in the mid 80's. We both went to a regular secondary modern school in Cambridgeshire that had a full time on site nurse/matron who I also got sent to a couple of times for minor sports injuries incurred during PE, although the medic I mention that we saw was male and not directly affiliated to the school. Never trusted doctors much although most people thought of them like gods until recently and they had a high status role where many automatically believed what they said and most people acted unquestionably on their advice.

Mike on 20th April 2022 said -

'99% of PE teachers, infact anybody, are fine and upstanding. But it's conspiracies to silence others that have in the past allowed some in this tiny minority to get away with their behaviour.'

Based on the jaw dropping news today that 56 MP's in Parliament are being investigated for sexual misconduct in their workplace, that's nearly one in ten of them, perhaps we should revise your figure down to about 90% or probably a lot less Mike?

Following on from Brendan, Paul and Daran on the "snipping" of our parts as they call it.

I got done when I was ten years old before I hit puberty on the advice of some school doctor in 1971. Its ages ago but I had no discomfort or troubles that I'm aware of but I do know I told my parents I didn't want to go and have it done and they completely dismissed my pleas. Both my parents are still alive and barely a year goes by when I have not had a go at them for what they did to me and left me like. Some people are circumcision zealots, as was mentioned maybe some of these school doctors were too and pushed their zealotry on this. Snipping (circumcising) boys like me for a non medical emergency like that is tantamount to violence against the child in my opinion. Later on at school in the locker room I didn't notice many other boys who looked like me and it left me very envious of the others. Anyone who defends this or any doctors trying to persuade parents to get their sons done for no good reason directly related to insurmountable physical health problems is clearly a sick minded zealot because it's left me with a big hang up much of my life. A child of any age has the right to say no.

Yes Iain that's right. Thanks for finding that. I think there was an open verdict because inquests don't often like to give a suicide one to those so young and so give them the benefit of the doubt whether they really meant to do it even if the facts looks quite obvious. I think that's very understandable.

Heartbreaking story Angela. Is this the young man you mention by any chance? Whenever a young person of that school age is driven to such extremes it makes a media impact and I'm pleased it does, It should never be ignored.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/4481988.stm

Well Daran I had a very similar experience to you there five years earlier though. Our new intake high school year all had to pass through this grubby and very short little man's hands throughout the course of the week, alone, no parental involvement or anyone else present in the room. I was probably only about 5ft tall and he was no bigger than me. Amongst one or two things from this that stick in the memory fifty years later is that talking between ourselves comparing notes afterwards so many of the boys said he'd told them a circumcision was required which seems unlikely for so many in a small group of a couple of dozen or so. Makes you wonder about it all doesn't it.

The good, the bad and the ugly are all a part of our young lives at school. Seventeen years ago a young boy who was only 13 years of age and lived in the next road to me in Lytham St Anne's and went to the same local school as my children had took his life and I think the subsequent inquest put it down to severe bullying. I found out at the time that this is far from unique. It's not uncommon for children as young as 11, 12 or 13 to be driven to this. So please be kind.

I don't get the fired up provocations from Andy and the lashing out. It makes no sense. I've gone through all this month's comment/memories. I do not agree with your interpretation. Sorry if that offends but just feel I had to say something about bullying culture that affected me deeply and that I often find myself thinking about all these years later.

Angela.

@ John - your comment on bullying reminds me of someone who was a bully (preferred modus operandi was the 'mid-night' phone for two hours). His attitude was that, if you called him a bully it was you that were the bully by saying so.

Andy - after your last post I have to say that I am really sorry for you ... please, for your own good, try and get a grip on things.

John makes points which are undeniably true but who knows the exact extent although I do think it is a fairly significant minority who come here on and off and some who are outright daydreamers.
It's a blurry line trying to decipher those who are coming here for the right reasons and those who are not.

I've really liked a few of the longer comments on here recently.

John on 25th April 2022 at 13:09

You are very troubled.

Can relate a tale of going to boarding school in the late 70s where I was a day boarder myself. About 1977 when I joined at 12 they gave many of the pupils an all the works check up. The school GP sent us home with our results a day or two later and in mine amongst many things he suggested circumcision might be a good idea for me. I didn't even notice I had a problem. He did the same with a couple of others who showed me their results letters. Within a week or so my dad took me along for a second opinion at our own private GP who told him there was no obvious necessity for it. I never had it done and the other couple didn't either. I remember my dad being quite mad at the school GP's suggestion and doubting he was making it on medical grounds alone. What I do remember from my boarding school days is the surprise at how many I was at school with who had been through the procedure. It seemed like half of them had which looking back seems interesting here in the UK and it was not a Jewish school either. I've long wondered if dad was right after all and the school's GP was pushing his own beliefs too much on parents and some went with it. Well I'm pleased my dad was so vocal and saved me from the same fate. My mum was completely indifferent either way.

The school GP suggested I had my tonsils out too and that never happened either, something I remember happening to quite a few others.

Kim on 25th April 2022 at 01:41

I was sent to be snipped/trimmed/circumcised from a school medical when I was eleven. I gave an account further down about it.

The doc checked foreskins of everyone and you had to be able to slip it back easily, mine barely moved so he told me it would need to come off. I didn't think anything more about it but a couple of weeks later a letter arrived at him and my mother told me I needed to go to hospital to have it done. I didn't argue, the doc had said it was necessary.

On the day my mother took me along to the hospital and I was admitted early one morning. I remember a surgeon coming to see me and then being wheeled to theatre and being put to sleep. When I woke up I was back on the ward and full of pain killers do I didn't feel anything. They gave me more during the afternoon and at night and then my mother came to collect me the next morning and they told her what needed to happen to make sure I was OK but fortunately, my dad did all the checks and I made a good recovery.

I have no issues about it, I didn't know much but it was tight and it coming off was the only thing to happen. Never having had one as an adult, I know no different and fortunately, it all still works ;-)

I know what's going on here. It's clear as day and nobody credible is fooled for a moment.

Never ending chat about medicals, genitals, jockstraps, nudity, canings and corporal punishment, shame and embarrassment and plenty more besides. It's low level and subtle, or not so subtle fetishism in words being played out time and again. Someone with a provable and well documented style of cmnm fetish even dropped by. It's what half of these people are about on this forum and what attracts them back. It's why one individual is likely kicking up a fuss. It's protecting the narrative that these people like to share on here at the expense of those who call it out and others with something real to say who get in the way.

Innocent memories. Not placed in all innocence. Yet the real innocent memories get attacked. It's a bit like the bully accusing his victim of actually being the bully isn't it, or Russia calling Ukraine the aggressor. Most of us see through the whole sham.

Professional help required only for the persistent fetishists who do not present themselves here in all innocence with what they say.

Replying to Paul and I've just got to ask about the part where you say you remembered a few lads going to be 'snipped', presuming you mean circumcision. Tell me I'm being too literal in my reading but it writes like lads were at the medical, got the foreskin check up and if needed went straight off to have it sliced off almost immediately! Me being silly and I sincerely hope no lads of school age ever ended up having that procedure against their own personal wishes on the say so of a school alone.

Heads up to those lads countering Andy's perspective but Brendan you put it quite nicely. It's not what you say but how you say it.

Directly quoting Andy in the line below from Sat 24 Apr;

'Another one to add to the list of the psychologically troubled. Seek professional help. '

Why would I do that? What did I write that suggested that?

My childhood and life in school was great from beginning to end. Heaps of friends, good at sport, popular with all my teachers, achieved well all round in whatever I tried. Only got fond memories of the time. Never felt shy, bothered by my body, which I mentioned to do with my chest hair in reply to a lady who asked, and had an all round good time. I didn't go around thinking bad things of anybody, always looked on the positive side and avoided the draining negative types wherever possible. I am happy in life, well paid, lovely family, a healthy and often hectic social life and a enjoy talking to and meeting new people whenever possible and am empathetic and sensitive to others, and know full well how very lucky I am in life to be able to say all these things.

Yet you called me 'psychologically troubled' and urged me to get 'psychological help' just for saying a few words that didn't tickle your fancy. Possibly time to heed that advice yourself. I'm pleased to say my mental wellbeing is in tip top condition, always has been and touch wood always will be.

I pity your ignorance and spiteful nature.

OMG, school medicals.

I guess for me the biggest thing was making sure my mum didn't attend, nothing else about it mattered. There was always a letter at home but usually we knew about them before the letter arrived so we were forewarned. Fortunately my mum never attended and I don't remember anyone else's being there either.

They took place in the gym and for the days they lasted, all PE was outside. At the required time we had to report to the changing room where there was always one of the PE masters waiting. We had to take off everything except our underpants and line up to go into the gym. Once in there there was a couple of places set up, one with a nurse waiting and the other, behind a screen, with a doctor.

First you saw the nurse who checked sight, hearing, weight and you also had to do some balance things like stand on one leg and also squat right down and back up a few times.

Once that was done, you had to take off your underpants and join a queue to see the doctor. He listened to heart and chest and felt your testicles as well as checking your foreskin. Mine moved easily but I remember a few lads going to be snipped. Once done you could retrieve your underpants and go and get dressed. The whole thing probably took about fifteen minutes and it was OK, as above, anything was better than having your mum there.

There was one of the PE masters there throughout keeping order, usually with a large plimsoll in hand, something they all had and any hint of misbehaviour would result in it being applied to several bottoms if he couldn't determine who had been the ringleader. I was close to a couple of lads once who were making too much noise although I was quiet and five of us got six hard whacks on our bare bottoms but that was just the price of being a school boy in the 1960s. It certainly wasn't the first or last time I got the slipper, mostly deserved, sometimes not but sometimes I got away with it when I deserved it so nothing to complain about.

Andy - with respect will you stop winding people up like this, it's very boring and unnecessary. You're picking a fight over nothing.

Andy on 24th April 2022 at 10:28

+1, we don't need agonising about the past here, bad memories maybe but not suspicion of every post and an implication that the poster was in some way the victim of abuse - and even if they were it's for them to determine, not for others to raise and imply.

Classic. I stood up in agreement with someone against the alleged 'bully' throwing his weight about in his self appointed role and put myself in his sights too on his list of shame. Just what can happen at school isn't it. Why do some people look for trouble that does not exist and sometimes ignore the elephant in the room that sometimes does?

I think my general view was made crystal clear on the bigger picture of schooldays in the last sentence of my 20/4/22 posting. Read it again.

Neal on 23rd April 2022 at 22:25

Another one to add to the list of the psychologically troubled.

Seek professional help.

Don't talk about all that Gary, Andy won't like it and it seems he rules the roost on here.

Thanks for the follow up Stuart, I agree and I'll bear what you said in mind.

Andy.

On 18th April I wrote the following.

"How nice to read plenty new on here that isn't revolving about what got worn under lads gym shorts. That was stifling the conversation here quite clearly."

I stand by it.

So what is your definition of an "innocent memory" as you call it?

The moment this thread picks up a bit with some actual different input you're having a strop because you don't like it.

Are you a moderator for History World or something? NO!

Why are you trying to stifle others and control what gets said here?

Funny how you don't call out those who keep the chat going in never ending circles about what boys wear under their shorts isn't it or other things that clearly have a dubious undercurrent.

It's not all rose tinted glasses you know. Schooldays are not the best days of everyone's lives. They were some of the best of mine. I can handle hearing some other points unlike mine.

You want an echo chamber with conformity of thought eh?

There is nothing here that has been written that is problematic from those names you listed and you can add me to your blacklist if you wish.

I think you are an intolerant and frankly exceptionally rude man to belittle others with mental health accusations like that.

Perhaps you've actually got something meaningful to say, if not then maybe, er.....silence.

Your words only speak to what you are like, not others.

That is incredible Gary K.

Mike on 20th April 2022 at 21:20
John on 20th April 2022 at 23:16
Tony on 21st April 2022 at 17:30

This is a board for innocent memories, not some kind of therapeutic community for those who now want to consider they were abused in some way as children and are now obsessed that everyone had the same experiences as they did. If you don't have innocent memories, how about you go and seek treatment for your problems?

For Graham who asked about school reunions.

Well three years ago I went to a school get together for those of us in our leaver year of 1979 aged sixteen. It was well advertised on various social media and I didn't hesitate deciding to go along to my old school in Hampshire and had high hopes about who I might bump into again with a decent sized collection of people I was keen to see again and find out about.

Alas I can only admit to it being one of the most disappointing evenings out in my entire life.

Almost nobody I liked much or wanted to meet showed up. It was full of many people that I barely knew, never interacted much with, didn't like or couldn't abide back at school who I didn't care if I never saw again. It turned into quite an uncomfortable experience. This one chap was there who spent a couple of years giving me a really hard time with a degree of bullying, sometimes minor physical assaulting like kicks up the backside and belittling or damaging stuff of mine in petty minded ways that he found deeply amusing. A lone bully with no gang of lackeys behind him. I have no idea why he did it as I had plenty of good friends and wasn't a loner, nerdy, insecure or anything like that. But I never smacked him back and always tried to just walk away, a regret in retrospect.

This bully came up to me all pals act, now a man of 56. I could scarcely recognise him easily. To cut things short what followed almost immediatly was him mentioning to me the way he used to behave towards me in school. I didn't bring it up first, he did. So he must have known what he did was wrong and remembered well. But the real sickener for me was all the self justification and delusion as I had to stand there and listen to it all from this toe-rag, making out he never meant any of it really and that he quite liked me and that it was all just schooldays fun and mucking about. I'm sure this fella now in his fifties thought he could just stand there and clear his conscience by saying a few words and I'd stand looking at him nodding in agreement. The brass neck and lack of self awareness never fails in some out there.

To tell you one thing about him, this was a boy at school who reckoned he liked me forty years later who on my way home from school one day as I walked across a bridge over a busy railway line decided to relieve me of my schoolbag full of everything I needed for school that day by yanking it out of my hand while my guard was down as he walked past me and throw it off the bridge to land between the rails of the track below where I couldn't retrieve it. I did get it back a day later after a call to BR and covering this bully's sorry backside with some wild excuse about how it got there. Another regret of mine.

This guy had been a menace to one or two others. Being the type he was I was surprised he'd want to come to a reunion at all. Going to a reunion and having to face a bully who then tries to whitewash years of abuse that made me worn out and unhappy by his ways was such a disappointment. Even though I tried to get an apology there was none. He hadn't done anything wrong. Much as I'd have liked to have given him a smack, damaged his property or kicked him in the backside I refrained. But I got my own back and as there is a lot of PE chatter on here I can mention this. I told him I rememebered him for him having the smallest penis in the 5th form. Obviously a school shower reference point as we all saw each other back in those days didn't we. He continued to smile like he was my best ever mate. He even offered me his number before I left, although I never took it.

Another thing from this reunion that got me was how this bully couldn't stop his beaming smile at me as if he was trying ever so hard, yet back in time his face was mostly snarling or smirking or sullen day after day. In the end his behaviour was down to jealousy. He turned out to have become a taxi driver while I became a historian and museum curator.

Hope that was of interest.

Kris. Yes there is a big difference between choice and the rules ( i.e. no choice) but back then you just conformed.
Nude swimming back then was mostly confined to junior boys but go back further into pre war times it was in the public schools through all ages like it was in american high schools up to the 60s.
More than happy to talk about the question you pose but this forum is not the place for that. Feel free though to email me.

Thanks for the answer Stuart. So I guess you quite liked the way you swam. I wouldn't have chosen to do that, well not in school anyway. But if the opportunity near a secluded stream near home had ever presented itself with my friends out of school on a nice day I might well have been daring enough to go for it. It doesn't seem so strange like that, but actual skinny dipping lessons just seems so damned odd to me and even more so if you were regimented into doing it without free will. Also because I knew I liked the same sex as myself by the age of just 13 I can only look back in absolute horrified empathy at what any young gay person may have possibly endured privately to themself in such a situation they had no control over.

I probably shouldn't bring this back up and ignore it if you want but no harm asking, did swimming like this have a any effect on you into adulthood, say with that cmnm thing that was mentioned then?

Brendan
I agree with you the thought of trousers and pants down in front of my nan horrified me more than the thought of being exposed to the doctor. As I say she did not attend and as I recall neither did anyone else's parents much to their relief.
When you were "trimmed" did you have an anaesthetic?

Referencing George here and is the school medical still a thing nowadays does anyone know or is it a thing of the past?

I'm a non identical twin and shared one with my brother once, both just in our pants with our mum looking on. We had to wait in the school corridor like it with her at the appointed time until called after getting sent from class to the changing room opposite the medical room to take our clothes off. Enjoyable is not a word I'd use to describe this eighties schooldays experience. It ended with us embarrassed by both being told we were very healthy strapping looking young men in front of our mum by our headmistress as she came sailing by when we came back out the medical room door ready to dart quickly across the corridor to the safety of the changing room and dress again. I think we were eleven or twelve at the time.

The wait outside the door for what must have been quarter of an hour seemed longer than our check up. Quite pointless and didn't even need us out of our clothes for much of it.

They may stick a covid needle into a few arms at school lately but has the full scale school medical for everyone at some point gone?

Probably yes he was Tony.